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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
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You remember Bohpal, right? No bomb's just poor safety managent
Thing is, explosions at chemical plants don't create exclusion zones, basically no-man's lands for 20,000 years, the whole history of historical civilization is shorter than that.
That's huge. What kind of exclusion zone would we have to deal with if Indian Point were to meltdown? Millions evacuated for life?
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2011 - 10:01pm PT
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FWIW, here's what congressman Denham says
"Dear Mr. Bralich,
Thank you for contacting me regarding nuclear energy infrastructure in the United States. I appreciate hearing your thoughts on the safety and security of U.S. nuclear reactors.
The Japanese natural disaster and nuclear crisis of March 11, 2011 was a terrible tragedy, affecting individuals across the globe. My thoughts and prayers are with our Japanese allies who were hit by an earthquake which caused a tsunami and damaged their nuclear reactors. It will be a while before we can adequately account for the after-effects of this tragedy and properly address the needs of the affected population. In light of this deep misfortune, I understand your concerns about the safety of U.S. nuclear plants.
The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) Chairman Gregory Jaczko testified before the House and Senate on March 16, 2011, stating that U.S. nuclear reactors are safe. The 104 U.S. commercial nuclear reactors have significantly improved their operating reliability and are more closely watched by on-site NRC inspectors and regional staff than in any other time in the 500 years of nuclear industry's existence. Between 2005 and 2009, there were no abnormal occurrences, accidents, or deficiencies that caused alarm for public health and safety.
Exceptional security measures were taken to strengthen U.S. reactors after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on our nation. In the wake of the attack, the NRC ordered measures to protect reactors, control rooms, and spent fuel storage pools. It is these actions that make up the difference between the security of U.S. and Japanese reactors. Although the designs are the same, the U.S. has exceeded the security measures of those practiced by the Japanese. These precautions include the reactors' ability to sustain adverse events such as loss of crucial operating and safety systems due to natural events, fires, aircraft impact and explosions. The plants can withstand a total loss of electric power, the condition that ruined the reactor and fuel cooling systems at Fukushima. Additionally, U.S. plants are adequately protected against flooding from inside or outside the plant and have developed strategies for dealing with potential earthquake damage to critical facilities.
Currently, of the 104 U.S. commercial nuclear reactors, 62 have been approved to operate for an additional 20 years beyond the initial 40 year licensing period and others, such as the Diablo Canyon Plant near San Luis Obispo, are also expected to seek license renewals. Rest assured, public safety is a major concern of mine, especially since California is a major front for nuclear energy innovation. I am confident in the nuclear industry in the United States and will continue to work to ensure its safe delivery of clean, efficient, cheap energy alternatives.
Finally, I encourage you to visit my website at www.denham.house.gov to get the most current information on my work in Congress. Once again, thank you for contacting me. Please keep in touch.
Sincerely,
JEFF DENHAM
United States Representative"
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Apr 13, 2011 - 10:42pm PT
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thanks to Karl Baba:
Fukushima Now Worldwide Emergency 11 April 2011
11 April 2011 Fukushima Overtakes Chernobyl: Now Worldwide Emergency
- Dr Michael Colgan
Since our earlier press releases,1 Fukushima has become a lot worse. Today, 11 April 2011, at a press conference in Tokyo, in the face of continuing increases in radiation, the Japanese Government announced will extend the mandatory evacuation zone around the stricken nuclear plant to 30km and evacuate contaminated towns including Namie, Iitate and Minamisoma. Even outside the new evacuation zone, Kyodo News reports that, “radiation ranges from 590,000 to 2.19 million Bequerels/cubic meter”. These numbers far exceed the levels at Chernobyl, which ranged up to 550,000 Bequerels/cubic meter. Also today, Japan Broadcasting Corporation reported figures from Tokyo Electric Power Company of 300,000 Bequerels of iodine-131 per cubic centimeter, in the sea close to the intake of Fukushima No 2 Reactor, measured on Saturday.9 April. That is 7.5 million times above the legal limit. It also reported 200,000 Bequerels per cubic centimeter, or 5 million times above the limit measured at 9am today. Today’s sample also shows cesium-137, with a half-life of 30 years, at 1.1 million times above the limit. All of this water is sending plumes of radiation into the air. Yesterday, Sunday,10 April 2011, the Japan Times raged against Tokyo Electric Power Co by quoting nuclear engineer Tetsunari Iida, that the catastrophe has grown "beyond the reach" of Japan's nuclear establishment. Satoshi Sato, a Japanese nuclear industry consultant, called the current strategies a "waste of effort." He said, “Plant instruments are likely damaged and unreliable because of the intense heat, and pumping more water into the reactors is only making the contamination problem worse.” The past week has seen numerous unsuccessful attempts to control cooling water leaking back out of the damaged reactors, radioactive to millions of times beyond the acceptable limit, so radioactive that contact with it would be lethal within six minutes. “Screaming with radioactivity,” US nuclear engineer Michael Friedlander told The Washington Post, which reported waste water levels at ten million times over the limit. This is unbelievably extreme radioactivity, by far the worst ever from a reactor accident, released into the environment, completely beyond the limits of any possible shielding or cleaning. There is now no strategy in place that will stop the radiation release, indicating that the Fukushima catastrophe is far worse than Chernobyl. As of today, 11 April 2011, some nuclear experts in Japan consider that the Fukushima reactors, holding 1,760 tons of nuclear fuel, versus 180 tons at Chernobyl, are beyond control. Hidehiko Nishiyama, deputy director-general of the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency (NISA), stated yesterday, "We cannot say what the outlook is for the next stage”. The desperate Tokyo Electric Power Company has also deliberately poured more than 10,000 tons of less radioactive water, a mere 100 times or so over the limit, directly into the Pacific Ocean. This clear violation of international law has aroused furious diplomatic objections from China and South Korea, now resounding and multiplying throughout Asia. Meanwhile, Japanese politicians foment strategies to remove Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan, for bungling the whole problem. Despite all the doom and gloom, I feel somewhat confident that TEPCO have now accepted the loss of face, and have finally engaged the best minds from Exelon, and Bechtel, the largest US nuclear operators, to fix it. It will still take many months, however. Meanwhile you have to protect yourself. Radiation over America and Canada In a head-in-the-sand refusal to acknowledge publicly that North America is sitting under a radiation cloud from Fukushima, the US and Canadian governments have yet to take official action to protect the public. Not so in Europe, where the radioactivity measurements show a much smaller fallout, only about 10% of that in North America. Nuclear authorities know well that even the small level of fallout in Europe is poisonous. On 7 April 2011, the French Institute for Radiological Protection and Nuclear Safety (IRSN), and CRIIRAD the French nuclear research institution, issued an information package on the risks of radioactive iodine-131. They advise all citizens, that the risks from Fukushima, “are not negligible.” They especially warn pregnant women and infants against "risky behavior," such as consuming rain water, fresh milk, goat, sheep, and cow cheeses, and vegetables with large leaves. As we reported earlier,1 radiation from Fukushima began hitting the west coast of North America on Monday 14 March 2011, three days after the Japanese earthquake. It has increases dramatically since. The next strong plume is forecast to blanket California April 12-14. For the past three weeks, large amounts of fallout have been coming down with the rain over British Columbia. Simon Fraser University researchers collected samples on Burnaby Mountain and in downtown Vancouver. They first detected the iodine-131 signature in samples from March 19, 20, and 25. Here are the results (measured in Bequerels/L, that is, decays of iodine-131 per second/ per litre of rainwater) March 18 0 Bq/l March 19 9 Bq/l March 20 12 Bq/l March 25 11 Bq/l 12 Bq/L is equal to 324.3 picoCuries per liter. (Conversion calculator here) EPA drinking water limit for Iodine-131 is 3 picoCuries per liter. So the rain in Vancouver is up to 108 times over the limit. A good example of the US food chain contamination is milk. On 8 April, Forbes reported that milk samples from Phoenix and Los Angeles containing iodine-131 at levels equal to the maximum of 3.0 picoCuries per liter permitted by the EPA, The Phoenix samples contained 3.2. The Los Angeles samples contained 2.9. On 10 April, Forbes reported the highest levels yet, 8.9 picoCuries per liter in samples from Little Rock, three times over the limit. There are now more than 100 similar reports on the internet from universities and research organizations throughout North America Protect Your Family In previous reports from the Colgan Institute,1 I documented the unfolding catastrophe, and advised protective measures against absorbing radioactive iodine-131 that has entered North America. Iodine-131 has a half-life of only 8.2 days, that is, half its radiation decays in that period, and it is much less dangerous. With daily iodine supplementation of 200-400 micrograms, and avoidance of cow’s milk and fresh cheese, except after freezing it for two weeks, you can avoid most of it. We also advise people to avoid Japanese seafood and vegetables, and avoid rain on your skin. Western beaches and seaweed in North America are becoming progressively polluted with radiation, and, regrettably, it might be wise to avoid them also this summer. These measures will do a lot to prevent radiation from accumulating in your body to levels likely to cause disease. Now is also a good time to catch up on your family emergency preparedness kit, with 20 gallons of clean water, and long-term storage food. The Nuclear Future Fukushima is a very serious catastrophe. It shows clearly that any technologically advanced civilization, including the US and Canada can be rendered helpless in a second by a nuclear accident. There is no safe level of man-made radiation. Some people seem to have forgotten the history. My own mentor Richard Feynman, and Robert Oppenheimer, the developers of the Hiroshima bomb, both came to oppose nuclear development in the end. Einstein, whose genius made nuclear power possible, was against using it from the very beginning. In the 1950s, Linus Pauling, the only two-time winner of the Nobel Prize, warned the public repeatedly about any exposure to radiation. Pauling’s writings were endorsed by thousands of scientists worldwide, which finally led John F. Kennedy to sign the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty with the USSR on 5 August 1963. Now, in the race for global energy supremacy, the nuclear industry is using its endless taxpayer funding for thousands of “expert” puppets to sing nuclear lullabies to the masses. If I see another nuclear safety story set to the theme of Snow White, I really believe I will vomit. Are we just sheeple to be herded by such fairy tales? Another million cancers swept under the carpet? Another million malformed babies? If we can even conceive them. US male sperm counts are now so low in that five million couples cannot In 1964, geneticist Hermann Mueller, another Nobel Prize winner, spelled out in his treatise, Radiation and Heredity the genetic damage of ionizing radiation in humans. He accurately predicted the reduction of sperm counts, sperm viability, and fertility rates in the US that has occurred over the last three decades. Now is the time to object to nuclear power. Now is the time to besiege your representatives to turn towards the real green energy of wind, and solar, and tidal force, before we have another disaster that could turn the Earth into a radioactive cinder. Colgan Institute Reports on the Fukushima disaster 12, 13 ,16, 17, 31, 30 March, 1, 4, April, www.colganinstitute.com http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/node/1944 (tetsu@isep.or.jp http://blogs.forbes.com/jeffmcmahon/2011/04/10/epa-new-radiation-highs-in-little-rock-milk-philadelphia-drinking-water/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/radiation-levels-reach-new-highs-as-conditions-worsen-for-workers/2011/03/27/AFsMLFiB_story.html CRIIRAD: Doses reçues par INGESTION d'iode 131 (7 Avril 2011) [EN - Ingestion of 131 iodine : Bq and doses] CRIIRAD: Accidents nucléaires au Japon : dossier spécial CRIIRAD: Contamination de la France par les rejets de la centrale de Fukushima Daiichi QUELS SONT LES RISQUES ? (7 Avril 2011) (corrected version) [EN - risk in France (and Europe)] http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2011/04/fukushima-evacuation-zone-set.html 10. http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/a... 11. Yoko Kubota and Kiyoshi Takenaka, Reuters April 11, 2011, 8:56 am "Cowardice asks the question, 'Is it safe?' Expediency asks the question, 'Is it politic?' Vanity asks the question, 'Is it popular? But, conscience asks the question, 'Is it right?' And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but one must take it because one's conscience tells one that it is right." Martin Luther King, Jr. See More
By: Michael Colgan
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 13, 2011 - 11:00pm PT
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I've been to only one nuke plant.
It took two weeks to get the clearance into the gate.
There was an extensive mandatory security and safety procedure briefing.
There were lines painted on the pavement that delineated a demarcation past where deadly force was authorized against ANY unescorted persons without prior authorization. We were hundreds of yards from anything nuclear.
I was working on a completely trivial system and there was still a written procedure like a space launch.
Stick to taking pictures Karl.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Apr 13, 2011 - 11:05pm PT
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TGT...How did you survive the deadly force zone...? rj
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Apr 13, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
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TGT....You were doing trivial procedures...? Please don't tell me nuclear janitors make a hundred thou a year...? rj
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 13, 2011 - 11:11pm PT
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Commissioning a precision chemical feed system to kill critters in the cooling intake steam and prevent fouling the heat exchangers.
Having someone with an MP5 and a black uniform standing around is a bit distracting.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2011 - 11:30pm PT
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I've been to only one nuke plant.
It took two weeks to get the clearance into the gate.
There was an extensive mandatory security and safety procedure briefing.
There were lines painted on the pavement that delineated a demarcation past where deadly force was authorized against ANY unescorted persons without prior authorization. We were hundreds of yards from anything nuclear.
I was working on a completely trivial system and there was still a written procedure like a space launch.
Stick to taking pictures Karl.
So are you telling me at 13 guys with AK47s instead of box cutters couldn't just have their way with the place? I'm sure that automatic weapons could bypass the clearance/briefing proceedures
Peace
karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 13, 2011 - 11:33pm PT
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Yer clueless
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2011 - 11:40pm PT
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Clue me in Bro. What am I missing here?
These things have to be reckoned ahead of time. My congressman tells me they changed procedures to protect plants but hey, they were already planning to reinforce cockpit doors before 9-11.
But calling me clueless while you're championing the safety of nuclear energy while one of the greatest accidents in nuclear history is completely unresolved seems a little off the mark.
I'm sure you would have discounted the possibility of this Japan scenario ever happening if asked one day before the quake hit
peace
karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 13, 2011 - 11:43pm PT
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I'm not discussing security procedures any more than this,
I intentionally misidentified the arms.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 13, 2011 - 11:51pm PT
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From the democacy Now site where they interview Dr. Michio Kaku
The Japanese government is trying to calm fears about radiation levels and food safety in the region around the heavily damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power facility, even as it has raised the severity rating of the crisis to the highest possible level. "Radiation is continuing to leak out of the reactors. The situation is not stable at all," says Dr. Michio Kaku, professor of theoretical physics at the City University of New York and the City College of New York. "The slightest disturbance could set off a full-scale meltdown at three nuclear power stations, far beyond what we saw at Chernobyl."
Listen here
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/4/13/expert_despite_japanese_govt_claims_of
Peace
Karl
Thanks for posting that Karl. PhD Michio Kaku is a very honest man. I sure like him. Very interesting listen . . .
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Apr 13, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
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Karl - I'm thinking that this problem has no solution but have to keep trying. They can't say that of course.
In the meantime some of nuclear tech is fascinating.
example: According to Nuclear Regulatory Commission staff, the total decay heat in a spent fuel pool is 3.9 megawatts (MW) ten days after a one-third-core offload.
That's a fairly staggering number. The Number 4 pool had recent full core offload plus dozens of older ones. No human could have witnessed the fireworks as that boiled dry then auto ignited like giant sparklers making the hydrogen that blew the building apart.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2011 - 12:03am PT
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From
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/14_03.html
Note that if they are already finding fish with 25 times the limit for Cesium, with it's long half life, in small fish, then its virtually certain to concentrate in higher levels in larger fish that eat those small fish. These larger fish are more likely to swim larger distances, outside areas already closed to fishing. The worldwide fishing industry is notorious already for fudging the facts on their catches.
You'll have to ask yourself soon, does my dinner have oil from the gulf or cesium from Japan onboard?
"The health ministry has detected radioactivity above the legal limit in fish caught off Fukushima Prefecture and 11 kinds of vegetables grown in the prefecture.
The ministry says it found 12,500 becquerels per kilogram, or 25 times the limit, of radioactive cesium in small fish called sand lances caught off Iwaki City, south of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant on Wednesday. It also discovered 12,000 becquerels, or 6 times the limit, of radioactive iodine in the fish.
On April 7th, sand lances caught off the city were already found to be contaminated with radioactive cesium in excess of the limit. Sand lances caught off Ibaraki Prefecture, south of Fukushima, were also found to be polluted with the radioactive substance.
The central government says sand lances are currently not being sold as fishing cooperatives in the 2 prefectures are not in operation.
Radioactivity was also detected on 11 kinds of vegetables sampled in Fukushima on Monday.
Authorities detected 1,960 becquerels per kilogram, or 4 times the legal limit, of cesium on Japanese parsley, known as Seri, grown in Soma City.
On Wednesday, the government banned the shipment of some shiitake mushrooms grown outdoors in eastern Fukushima after detecting radioactivity above the legal limit.
Thursday, April 14, 2011 07:28 +0900 (JST)"
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Apr 14, 2011 - 12:16am PT
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Wonder if the Bering Sea crab fishermen and checking for isotopes yet?
i.e. all the bait fish they load into the pots...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Apr 14, 2011 - 12:39am PT
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So are you telling me at 13 guys with AK47s instead of box cutters couldn't just have their way with the place? I'm sure that automatic weapons could bypass the clearance/briefing proceedures
TGT may not take pleasure in me agreeing with him…but security IS considerably concentrated at U.S. nuclear facilities. The physical barriers and security force at the INEL reactor I worked in would rout thirteen terrorists with AK47’s .
A few years ago, an army elite tactical unit from Fort Benning.…flew into the INEL, landing a large airplane on the highway, and attempted a raid on the facility at night… (The guard force had been advised it would happen within a two week window). They failed to gain entrance either through the gate or over the fences…fortunately no live bullets… so they were able to return to Georgia in full health… but somewhat subdued spirits.
…or so I was told by INEL guards.
Karl, some nuclear reactors grant limited tours through educational organizations. Such a visit may not change your opinion of the nuclear industry but might alter your perceptions of security and give you opportunity to scrutinize reactor operations at closer proximity.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Apr 14, 2011 - 12:45am PT
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TGT... " having someone holding a MP5 and wearing black clothing is pretty distracting " Were you able to get her phone number...? rj
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 14, 2011 - 12:57am PT
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Studly, no shill here. Most of my career has been in cleanup of the worst sites you can imagine and some that you can't.
A cover up on a massive scale so as to not alarm the population and have any negative effect on the economy or impact Japan or nuclear power here in the US.
I was responding to your "cover up" assertion. Asking you if you trust the many different sources to tell you the truth or not here in the US. Apparently you can as you did offer up a reference so I suppose that your statement above was made in an emotional moment due to all of the concerns each of us have about this incident.
And Karl, 20,000 years is a long time, not sure where you got that from. More fear mongering? My CHEMIST tells me the half-life of Cs-137 is 33.6 years. (She could be off on this but her PhD dissertation revolved around Cesium so I tend to believe her).
My only point is that many of you are reacting from fear and not from a logical examination of where our energy comes from and all of the environmental risks associated with each source. Nor are many of you able to keep it to the facts which are serious enough without the exaggeration.
EDIT:
Jennie's point is very well taken. I worked for DOD for 10 years and will not name sites. The last place I worked at they scanned my finger print and I had 5 gates to gain entrance under the purview of armed guards. They took my badge and examined my picture against their computer picture. That was DOD and from what I have seen, the DOE and Nuclear facility security is much tighter than that and the guards are much scarier looking and seemingly better trained.
Oh and one more thing Karl. As an experienced Chemical Engineer I can assure you that it would be far easier to wreak havoc in a city with commonly available chemicals than you could possibly imagine.
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