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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:39pm PT
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Dr.F!
I understand and respect your opinion!
I can only hope you feel the same way about me!
Sincerely, John.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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Dr F -- "I went all the way, went past were God should be, nothing was there."
The fingers of your hand (you) thought that they should take the food themselves instead of giving it to the stomach.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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Dr.F!
If I ever have!
If I am!
If I ever do come over that way!
Do me a big favor and kick my Butt!
Thanks, I know you will!
And I say this because it is not beyound me!
Honest!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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Jim Brennan-
I am new at this posting.
And word processing for that matter.
As I mentioned earlier today.
I never even typed a letter.
Use pen and paper.
I guess I just got a little carried away.
One time I held down the key to long and I remember thinking, that looks cool and I left it there!
But I should know better, not to long ago I remember reading about some one responding to someone, and saying "you wrote that in all caps (uppercase I guess its referred to) you were yelling at me, have I ever yelled at you?"
Big argument ensued, just over the 'yelling' issue.
Well my humble apologies.
Actually believe it or not I was just thinking about when to use and not use the exclamation marks, and in my last post just above yours, you will notice I just went to one exclamation mark. For what that is worth.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Didn't mean to come across that way, I am pretty borderline as it is.
Certainly fill me in as you please.
Hopefully it will make me a better person.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:45am PT
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locker, that is brilliant! it really is...
"there are not fairy tales"
genius!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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Craig wrote: "The universe will always be able to be understood in logical terms,there is nothing in this universe that exists without a logical explanation."
You're starting to sound like Dr. Spock. What's more, I got torched by a host of smoking women back in college for no reason, least of all a "logical" reason.
Also, you said: "I went all the way, went past were God should be, nothing was there."
Yo don't get any closer than that. Problem is, you bailed too soon. That dead, barren space is writen about in all the traditions - aka the cloud of unknowing. Hanging in that space is terribly difficult, but yields big time if you can bear not knowing and being totally clueless and frustrated as sh#t. But that ain't easy. But if you ever find yourself there again, pitch a tent and wait.
JL
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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genius!
It was good, but I don't know about genius, village idiot savant, maybe.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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John 1:23, He said, “I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as the prophet Isaiah said.”
John 1:31, I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.”
Matt 21:26, But if we say, ‘From man,’ we are afraid of the crowd, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”
Luke 20:6, But if we say, ‘From man,’ all the people will stone us to death, for they are convinced that John was a prophet.”
John 8:12, Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:21am PT
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The Devil's Sooty Brother
from Grimm's Fairy Tales
A discharged soldier had nothing to live on, and did not know how to make his way. So he went out into the forest and when he had walked for a short time, he met a little man who turned out to be the devil. The little man said to him, "What ails you, you seem so very sorrowful?" Then the soldier said, "I am hungry, but have no money." The devil said, "If you will hire yourself to me, and be my serving-man, you shall have enough for all your life. You shall serve me for seven years, and after that you shall again be free. But one thing I must tell you, and that is, you must not wash, comb, or trim yourself, or cut your hair or nails, or wipe the water from your eyes." The soldier said, "All right, if there is no help for it," and went off with the little man, who straightway led him down into hell. Then he told him what he had to do. He was to poke the fire under the kettles wherein the hell-broth was stewing, keep the house clean, drive all the sweepings behind the doors, and see that everything was in order, but if he once peeped into the kettles, it would go ill with him. The soldier said, "Good, I will take care." And then the old devil went out again on his wanderings, and the soldier entered upon his new duties, made the fire, and swept the dirt well behind the doors, just as he had been bidden.
When the old devil came back again, he looked to see if all had been done, appeared satisfied, and went forth a second time. The soldier now took a good look on every side, the kettles were standing all round hell with a mighty fire below them, and inside they were boiling and sputtering. He would have given anything to look inside them, if the devil had not so particularly forbidden him.
At last he could no longer restrain himself, slightly raised the lid of the first kettle, and peeped in, and there he saw his former corporal sitting. "Aha, old bird," said he, "do I meet you here? You once had me in your power, now I have you." And he quickly let the lid fall, poked the fire, and added a fresh log. After that, he went to the second kettle, raised its lid also a little, and peeped in and there sat his former ensign. "Aha, old bird, so I find you here, you once had me in your power, now I have you." He closed the lid again, and fetched yet another log to make it really hot. Then he wanted to see who might be sitting up in the third kettle - and who should it be but his general. "Aha, old bird, do I meet you here. Once you had me in your power, now I have you." And he fetched the bellows and made hell-fire blaze right under him.
So he did his work seven years in hell, did not wash, comb, or trim himself, or cut his hair or nails, or wash the water out of his eyes, and the seven years seemed so short to him that he thought he had only been half a year. Now when the time had fully gone by, the devil came and said, "Well Hans, what have you done?" "I poked the fire under the kettles, and I have swept all the dirt well behind the doors."
"But you have peeped into the kettles as well, it is lucky for you that you added fresh logs to them, or else your life would have been forfeited. Now that your time is up, will you go home again?" "Yes," said the soldier, "I should very much like to see what my father is doing at home." The devil said, "In order that you may receive the wages you have earned, go and fill your knapsack full of the sweepings, and take it home with you. You must also go unwashed and uncombed, with long hair on your head and beard, and with uncut nails and dim eyes, and when you are asked whence you come, you must say, from hell, and when you are asked who you are, you are to say, the devil's sooty brother, and my king as well."
The soldier held his peace, and did as the devil bade him, but he was not at all satisfied with his wages. Then as soon as he was up in the forest again, he took his knapsack from his back, to empty it, but on opening it, the sweepings had become pure gold. "I should never have expected that," said he, and was well pleased, and entered the town. The landlord was standing in front of the inn, and when he saw the soldier approaching, he was terrified, because Hans looked such a horrible sight, worse than a scare-crow. He called to him and asked, "Whence do you come?" "From hell." "Who are you?" "The devil's sooty brother, and my king as well." Then the host would not let him enter, but when Hans showed him the gold, he came and unlatched the door himself. Hans then ordered the best room and attendance, ate, and drank his fill, but neither washed nor combed himself as the devil had bidden him, and at last lay down to sleep. But the knapsack full of gold remained before the eyes of the landlord, and left him no peace, and during the night he crept in and stole it away. Next morning, however, when Hans got up and wanted to pay the landlord and travel further, behold his knapsack was gone. But he soon composed himself and thought, you have been unfortunate from no fault of your own. And straightway went back again to hell, complained of his misfortune to the old devil, and begged for his help. The devil said, "Seat yourself, I will wash, comb, and trim you, cut your hair and nails, and wash your eyes for you." And when he had done with him, he gave him the knapsack back again full of sweepings, and said, "Go and tell the landlord that he must return you your money, or else I will come and fetch him, and he shall poke the fire in your place." Hans went up and said to the landlord, "You have stolen my money, if you do not return it, you shall go down to hell in my place, and will look as horrible as I." Then the landlord gave him the money, and more besides, only begging him to keep it secret. And Hans was now a rich man.
He set out on his way home to his father, bought himself a shabby smock to wear, and strolled about making music, for he had learned to do that while he was with the devil in hell.
There was however, an old king in that country, before whom he had to play, and the king was so delighted with his playing, that he promised him his eldest daughter in marriage. But when she heard that she was to be married to a common fellow in a smock, she said, "Rather than do that, I would go into the deepest water." Then the king gave him the youngest, who was quite willing to do it to please her father, and thus the devil's sooty brother got the king's daughter, and when the aged king died, the whole kingdom likewise.
--The End--
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:27am PT
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The Spirit in the Bottle
from The Brothers Grimm
There was once a poor woodcutter who toiled from early morning till late at night. When at last he had laid by some money he said to his boy, "You are my only child, I will spend the money which I have earned with the sweat of my brow on your education, if you learn some honest trade you can support me in my old age, when my limbs have grown stiff and I am obliged to stay at home."
Then the boy went to a high school and learned diligently so that his masters praised him, and he remained there a long time. When he had worked through two classes, but was still not yet perfect in everything, the little pittance which the father had earned was all spent, and the boy was obliged to return home to him.
"Ah," said the father, sorrowfully, "I can give you no more, and in these hard times I cannot earn a farthing more than will suffice for our daily bread." "Dear father," answered the son, "don't trouble yourself about it, if it is God's will, it will turn to my advantage. I shall soon accustom myself to it." When the father wanted to go into the forest to earn money by helping to chop and stack wood, the son said, "I will go with you and help you." "Nay, my son," said the father, "that would be hard for you. You are not accustomed to rough work, and will not be able to bear it. Besides, I have only one axe and no money left wherewith to buy another." "Just go to the neighbor," answered the son, "he will lend you his axe until I have earned one for myself."
The father then borrowed an axe of the neighbor, and next morning at break of day they went out into the forest together. The son helped his father and was quite merry and brisk about it. But when the sun was right over their heads, the father said, "We will rest, and have our dinner, and then we shall work twice as well." The son took his bread in his hands, and said, "Just you rest, father, I am not tired, I will walk up and down a little in the forest, and look for birds' nests." "Oh, you fool," said the father, "why should you want to run about there? Afterwards you will be tired, and no longer able to raise your arm. Stay here, and sit down beside me."
The son, however, went into the forest, ate his bread, was very merry and peered in among the green branches to see if he could discover a bird's nest anywhere. So he walked to and fro until at last he came to a great dangerous-looking oak, which certainly was already many hundred years old, and which five men could not have spanned. He stood still and looked at it, and thought, many a bird must have built its nest in that. Then all at once it seemed to him that he heard a voice. He listened and became aware that someone was crying in a very smothered voice, "Let me out, let me out." He looked around, but could discover nothing. Then he fancied that the voice came out of the ground. So he cried, "Where are you?" The voice answered, "I am down here amongst the roots of the oak-tree. Let me out. Let me out."
The schoolboy began to loosen the earth under the tree, and search among the roots, until at last he found a glass bottle in a little hollow. He lifted it up and held it against the light, and then saw a creature shaped like a frog, springing up and down in it. "Let me out. Let me out," it cried anew, and the boy thinking no evil, drew the cork out of the bottle. Immediately a spirit ascended from it, and began to grow, and grew so fast that in a very few moments he stood before the boy, a terrible fellow as big as half the tree. "Do you know," he cried in an awful voice, "what your reward is for having let me out?" "No," replied the boy fearlessly, "how should I know that?" "Then I will tell you," cried the spirit, "I must strangle you for it." "You should have told me that sooner," said the boy, "for I should then have left you shut up, but my head shall stand fast for all you can do, more persons than one must be consulted about that." "More persons here, more persons there," said the spirit. "You shall have the reward you have earned. Do you think that I was shut up there for such a long time as a favor. No, it was a punishment for me. I am the mighty Mercurius. Whoso releases me, him must I strangle." "Slowly," answered the boy, "not so fast. I must first know that you really were shut up in that little bottle, and that you are the right spirit. If, indeed, you can get in again, I will believe and then you may do as you will with me." The spirit said haughtily, "that is a very trifling feat." Drew himself together, and made himself as small and slender as he had been at first, so that he crept through the same opening, and right through the neck of the bottle in again. Scarcely was he within than the boy thrust the cork he had drawn back into the bottle, and threw it among the roots of the oak into its old place, and the spirit was deceived.
And now the schoolboy was about to return to his father, but the spirit cried very piteously, "Ah, do let me out, ah, do let me out." "No," answered the boy, "not a second time. He who has once tried to take my life shall not be set free by me, now that I have caught him again." "If you will set me free," said the spirit, "I will give you so much that you will have plenty all the days of your life." "No," answered the boy, "you would cheat me as you did the first time." "You are spurning you own good luck," said the spirit, "I will do you no harm but will reward you richly." The boy thought, "I will venture it, perhaps he will keep his word, and anyhow he shall not get the better of me."
Then he took out the cork, and the spirit rose up from the bottle as he had done before, stretched himself out and became as big as a giant. "Now you shall have your reward," said he, and handed the boy a little rag just like stiking-plaster, and said, "If you spread one end of this over a wound it will heal, and if you rub steel or iron with the other end it will be changed into silver." "I must just try that," said the boy, and went to a tree, tore off the bark with his axe, and rubbed it with one end of the plaster. It immediately closed together and was healed. "Now, it is all right," he said to the spirit, "and we can part." The spirit thanked him for his release, and the boy thanked the spirit for his present, and went back to his father.
"Where have you been racing about?" said the father. "Why have you forgotten your work? I always said that you would never come to anything." "Be easy, father, I will make it up." "Make it up indeed," said the father angrily, "that's no use." "Take care, father, I will soon hew that tree there, so that it will split." Then he took his plaster, rubbed the axe with it, and dealt a mighty blow, but as the iron had changed into silver, the edge bent. "Hi, father, just look what a bad axe you've given me, it has become quite crooked." The father was shocked and said, "Ah, what have you done! Now I shall have to pay for that, and have not the wherewithal, and that is all the good I have got by your work." "Don't get angry," said the son, "I will soon pay for the axe." "Oh, you blockhead," cried the father, "Wherewith will you pay for it? You have nothing but what I give you. These are students' tricks that are sticking in your head, you have no idea of woodcutting."
After a while the boy said, "Father, I can really work no more, we had better take a holiday." "Eh, what," answered he, "do you think I will sit with my hands lying in my lap like you. I must go on working, but you may take yourself off home." "Father, I am here in this wood for the first time, I don't know my way alone. Do go with me." As his anger had now abated, the father at last let himself be persuaded and went home with him. Then he said to the son, "Go and sell your damaged axe, and see what you can get for it, and I must earn the difference, in order to pay the neighbor."
The son took the axe, and carried it into town to a goldsmith, who tested it, laid it in the scales, and said, "It is worth four hundred talers, I have not so much as that by me." The son said, "Give me what thou have, I will lend you the rest." The goldsmith gave him three hundred talers, and remained a hundred in his debt. The son thereupon went home and said, "Father, I have got the money, go and ask the neighbor what he wants for the axe." "I know that already," answered the old man, "one taler, six groschen." "Then give him him two talers, twelve groschen, that is double and enough. See, I have money in plenty." And he gave the father a hundred talers, and said, "You shall never know want, live as comfortably as you like."
"Good heavens," said the father, "how have you come by these riches?" The boy then told how all had come to pass, and how he, trusting in his luck, had made such a packet. But with the money that was left, he went back to the high school and went on learning more, and as he could heal all wounds with his plaster, he became the most famous doctor in the whole world.
--The End--
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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Wanda- "Good heavens said the father,"
Good heavens says me. Did you type all that?
Or is their a way to scan it?
Regardless, excellent choice of author and a great read.
Thanks.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 01:51am PT
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Wanda!
OK.
OK.
Know I get it. As I confessed to jstan, I type 4-5 words a minute and I don't read or process what I read much faster than that.
Gobee does his thing, Wanda responds.
This is a fascinating place, with so many brilliant people.
Think I'll stay a while.
Peace.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 24, 2009 - 02:35am PT
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Anyone here read 'Freddy's Book'?
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 04:54am PT
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Go!
Previously, there was a discussion in regards to a C.S. Lewis "parable".
And the "Vale of Tears".
And you stated something to the effect that "I am glad that you do not adhere to that belief" (my paraphrase of your words).
Well like I stated then, "I have never heard of that phrase." The "Vale of Tears"
And I am still unsure of its underlying meaning, so I am not certain weather I agree with it or not.
But in regards to what C.S. was implying, it was pretty harsh indeed. And I did not agree with the way it read, as much as I admire C.S. Lewis.
It is difficult for me to turn back to this, and I hope I am not rubbing salt into old wounds.
Like I said earlier I have studied scripture and believe that Jesus is going to set up His Kingdom for 1,000 yrs. here on earth when He returns.
By the way, He will be returning to stop the waring world from destroying itself at Armageddon.
A good thing if I may say so.
And as I said earlier, I believe He created the world, and I don't believe that he had hell in mind when He did create it. On the contrary, I believe He wanted you to see His beauty and grandeur in the creation.
I hope this somehow helps. I'll take the risk in hopes that it will.
Attempts at peacemaking sometimes generate the opposite result.
And keep in mind, as I am sure you are aware, C.S. Lewis was a mere man, as we all are. Prone to mistakes large and small.
Thanks again.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 24, 2009 - 05:04am PT
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That's Vale, not Vail.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 05:18am PT
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Thanks Jaybro.
I still don't have a clue to what it is referring.
What is a "Vale"?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 24, 2009 - 05:24am PT
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I dunno, I've looked, but to noah....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale_of_tears
Maybe; "In geography, a vale is a wide river valley, usually with a particularly wide flood plain or flat valley bottom. Vales commonly occur between the escarpment slopes of pairs of chalk downs, where the chalk dome has been eroded, exposing less resistant underlying rock, usually clay."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vale
Still dunno, if that might apply above....
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 05:52am PT
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Thanks again!
I think it refers to verse 4 of the 23 third Psalm "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil...".
But that Psalm begins with "The Lord is my Shepard I shall not want He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul;"
Valley of the shadow of death, can refer to any distressing time in our lives. The awareness of our mortality often comes with sickness trials and hardship. But the Lord, our Protector, can lead us through these dark and difficult valleys to eternal life with Him. There is no need to fear deaths power.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 24, 2009 - 06:12am PT
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But life isn't all valley's, later in the same psalm it says "My cup runs over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the day's of my life;"
Well, maybe Craigman, Werner, or Go can shed some light on its meaning.
But a vale is a valley or low point.
But this life is, as you know, both highs and lows and everything in between.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 24, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
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The ultimate goal is not to go to heaven .....
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Let us know!