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Psilocyborg
climber
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Beliefs are a very powerful thing, for good and bad. You might go as far to say belief is everything......except truth.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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emphasize the positive and what works for you and just leave the others out of it?
well i do try and point at Jesus as much as i can, but i'm not go-B. where is that guy? The negatives i recite are mostly factual in our history. Which brings to mind; "You can't know where your going unless you know where you been"
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The great religions of the world (those with large numbers of followers) do seem to separate themselves from nature: in Christianity the world is but a thorny manifestation of original sin and this is true though less emphasized in Islam and Judaism. Same for Buddhism that sees all life as sorrowful and the necessity of escape.
At its core Christianity sees humanity as responsible for the corruption of nature through original sin ("I curse the ground for thysake.") and isn't it interesting and Ironic that we romantic nature worshipers, celebrants of Darwin and science see nature so similarly: man as the spoiler of nature, ruining our paradise, man as separate from nature.
How Christian of us.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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American Indian religions are fairly primitive---if one holds to the notion that there exits a degree of social/cultural/technological complexity reflected in the historical progression of human societies, such as the transition from hunter gatherers to settled agriculturalism. The world's great monotheistic religions arose roughly contemporaneously and therefore reflected a tremendous sea change in the modus operandi of religion in general, and perhaps not for the first time
'If one holds' as if these were 'self-evident truths', but of course they're not. Golly thank goodness this gem of a quote in closing at least gives a slight hand wave of acknowledgment to the fact that yes, 'perhaps' the Babylonian, Chinese, Egyptian, Persian, and Roman empires might have shifted the game a couple of times beforehand; against which, the colonialists and their European masters could easily be said to be not only 'primitive', but barbarian in their treatment of their own people.
If it can be said , as Pascal once did, that the religions of man are essentially spiritual technologies, then the question, posed earlier, as regards the presence of "morality" (in the nature of religions) is a question of pivotal significance.
As human societies increased in complexity, as they transitioned from earlier forms of subsistence and social organization ,certain specific requirements arose in establishing an objective uniformity of codes of conduct so that such societies could function amidst a tumultuous swirl of ever increasing barter,trade,litigation, employment, primogeniture, war, crime, sheer human numbers, and countless other requirements.
And the idea here of course, is because Pascal said it then it must not be a patently self-serving assertion that hierarchal complexity, sheer numeracy and 'morality' are somehow linked. Mindlessly self-serving as arguments go and sadly bankrupt when even a cursory glance at history pretty much details the opposite. In this regard I think Blaise had a hard time distinguishing between subjugation, class, order [of law by force] and 'morality' - i.e. order mistaken for morality.
Primitive? Sure, that's why most of the best ideas set forth in our Declaration of Independence and subsequent Constitution and Bill of Rights came not from European experience, thought or society which had little experience with individual [and women's] rights and democracy, but were copped directly from interacting with and learning from the highly organized Native American society, thought and governance of the time.
[ P.S. US Constitutional 'scholars' have been fundamentally, intellectually and ideologically averse to those facts due to a 'romantic' attachment to (and investment in) European intellectual discourse of the time. But while the European's 'discussed' those ideas to death, the Haudenosaunee lived them. Hence the historic and ongoing need for the 'meme-ification' of the very idea. Sure, throw it a bone here and there, but hey, it never really happened. ]
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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One wonders where IS the progressive, innovative and forward-thinking spirit on this thread. Is it completely dead?
(and among evolutionists, too, of all people? oh the irony!)
Here, it's needed - some reinvigorating...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmYl9gP2rK8
And nothing like a little hardcore history to remind folks (1) how primitive and backward we were once, (2) how progress is difficult, and (3) how far we've actually come (esp when it's so easily forgotten it seems)...
http://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/
The "Blueprint for Armegeddon" series is great, top ten at itunes even. Not bad for a history lesson, I'd say. Think about it.
Take advantage, after all it's free!
...
Food for thought.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Insightful post, HFCS...like it (can't go wrong with Honnold videos).
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Thanks, eeyonkee.
Hey, you should post more. Your au courant and freshness are missed. If not time consuming essays or deeply felt personal musings, lol, then how about at least some bits once in awhile from around the internet you found noteworthy or cool?
Anything, really. Anything science, technology, education, progress, innovation, future related... As long as it is free of woo, free of paranormal or supernatural... as long as it is evidence and reason based even if speculative, etc it is most welcome, I won't complain, haha.
See you around. :)
I was led to this earlier today, as an example. It was recommended. But I haven't watched it yet.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgUF5WalyDk
Hopefully later tonight. Note the School of Life header. That hints to future evo I think, regarding education, "spirituality" and belief - though many sadly don't perceive it.
(Don't know about that opening music though, lol.)
.....
"At its core Christianity sees humanity as responsible for the corruption of nature through original sin..."
And if this isn't an example of its outdated belief (and thus, primitive) in regard to a truth-claim, nothing is.
People need to wake up. There's no better time.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Buddhism isnt sorrowful, but honest. Life does involve suffering, snd detachment helps us deal with that reality and help relieve the suffering of others. It also recognizes that ignorance is iften at the root of suffering. Finally, Buddhism's grounding in the moment (not unique to Buddhism) does more to relieve sorrow than the fantastic empty promises of Christianity. Far from 'escape', Buddhism offers rational thinkers a way to embrace the world as it is and enjoy it.
original sin is not about defiling nature - a recent idea slathered on at best. it is about disobeying a veangeful god - a much older sentiment. its about control, self and political. It's also about creating something for religion to sell: Man had eternal life, he blew it, and if he wants it back guess who he needs to go through to get it? Brilliant invention, I must say.
Curiously, Islam didn't take the concept on when it split from it's predecessor religions.
and man is the defiler these days, as supervolcanoes and asteroids have been before us. weve attained that level if destruction of what existed when we arrived. Zero irony that i can see, and simply stating the obvious bears no resemblance to false nature/man dichotomies or whatever the straw man de jour happens to be.
Painstakingly creating something, then wiping it out in a hurry is what nature does .
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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JGill, below is a link to a review of Max's book "Our Mathematical Universe" on Peter Woit's blog 'Not Even Wrong' (he also did the WSJ review of the book)
Thanks, Joe. Very entertaining comments. I haven't read the book and will not do so, and Tegmark's mathematical universe woo might be no more than an amusing topic of conversation at a cocktail party . . . like Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science", that apparently no one has actually read in its mind-numbing entirety.
Normally I poke at Largo and Mike and a few others who drift effortlessly into metaphysical flapdoodle, but I will admit a multiple universe theory (MUT) is appealing. It might be that metaphysics is all there can possibly be to it, and the notion that alternate universes operate under alternate physical rules is a tad far fetched, however, at each instant an event undergoes change and the sheer number of possibilities is unthinkable. It could be that "the" universe in all its parts is constantly bifurcating into event chains and in some sense they all "exist."
Some time back I became interested in infinite compositions of analytic functions and when you squeeze ever-increasing numbers of differing composing functions into a set time frame you approach an infinite number of iterations that have a similarity to the stream of existence of events. A point in the complex plane that is forced this way or that at each instant by functions that arise in some kind of probabilistic manner is something like a path of an event through space and time.
After reading what I have just written I have more empathy for Mike and John! We are all susceptible to the allure of metaphysics.
;>)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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We are all susceptible to the allure of metaphysics.
Not sure about metaphysics, but I do fall prey to imagination. When I learned about the multiverse hypothesis it did seem a crazy way to stop worrying about the cat being both dead and alive, but the splitting into every possible way for our present to evolve does not lead to an infinity of universes, at least not in a finite time.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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At its core Christianity sees humanity as responsible for the corruption of nature through original sin ("I curse the ground for thysake.") and isn't it interesting and Ironic that we romantic nature worshipers, celebrants of Darwin and science see nature so similarly: man as the spoiler of nature, ruining our paradise, man as separate from nature.
It is interesting. Although the corruption of nature in itself operates as an a priori condition in that mankind must inhabit the central stage of a self-generated corrupted natural world in order to be eligible for deliverance from same. A deflowered Edenic paradise lost must be on the indispensible resume of any self-respecting sinner.
The Punishment of Mankind
, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. 18"Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field;…
In this same instance of declaring that nature will be corrupted , the God of Adam seems to be introducing agriculture. This whole thing seems to have stemmed from God's unwavering insistence that they steadfastly adhere to HIS agricultural manual.
And yet God himself is enabling this downfall ---by deliberately placing the ontological possibility of corruption prepackaged within this preternatural world. It is God that miscalculates Adams feckless disobedience .
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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but the splitting into every possible way for our present to evolve does not lead to an infinity of universes, at least not in a finite time
Sure it does in theory, Andy. Simplified, suppose the time interval is one minute. You start by iterating the point z; suppose at each iteration there are two possible paths for the point to take. If N is the number of times you compose (iterate) then there are 2^N possible event "paths." Now suppose you subdivide the minute into N equal parts, bifurcate at each step and allow N to tend to infinity. I associate a "path" with a "universe." I also assume there is no "smallest" interval of time . . . at odds with some physicists.
Mathematical flapdoodle.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The disturbing contradiction/irony in the story of Adam and Eve and paradise is that these innocents could only learn the knowledge of good and evil by eating fruit from the very tree they were told not to. How in their innocence could they commit an evil act? How could they know righteousness was obedience and evil was disobedience? How could they introduce evil into the world when they were without any knowledge of evil in the first place?
The notion that humanity is separated from nature is the foundation of much of religious thought and that notion has found its way thickly into our contemporary, secular understanding of the natural world.
Buddhism isn't sorrow it is release. The world is sorrowful. Reading comprehension is a virtue.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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And being a sore loser is not.
Yes, Abrahamic religions separate man from nature. OK. And that is not what the invention of original sin is about - at all.
It's a simple story of its time: A psychopathic God (as many were back in the day) sets Adam up for failure - he fails, punishment ensues. Oh, and it's the Whore's fault, so there's that component of Christianity tossed in for spice as well. Satan - Woman - Temptation. You get the idea. It's a Christian thang.
Basically, humans inherently suck so they need God to avoid the death penalty. Please give generously. Dial 1 800 FUDEATH
This is probably why coming in sum yung gai rents the fabric of the holy universe. The shame force runs strong among the Christians.
Dirty, dirty humans and their dirty, dirty holes.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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The disturbing contradiction/irony in the story of Adam and Eve and paradise
Not so much disturbing as uninteresting, and one-dimensional .God has made Obediance the central issue. He never pretends it is anything other than Obediance. Period.Only after the act of disobedience does the bill come do. Up until then It is Adam's job to do one thing only :obey God.
The contumacious act of not adhering to just one overarching Law brings about an immediate separation from God. The alienation from nature is second fiddle---in fact, paradise lost is an upstream a priori condition necessary as the central stage for mankinds ultimate reunification with God.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Basically, it's God the Child Beater yelling "The little as#@&%e was asking for it!"
Nothing new under that Son.
Worship = Love.
But hugs are only for The Perfect, Darling.
In other words, garden variety psychopathy with more than a dash of Stockholm Syndrome.
Seriously? F*#k that.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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The Islamists have their own brand of psychopathy, of course - taken right out of a dusty Catholic playbook.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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God has made Obediance the central issue. He never pretends it is anything other than Obedience.
The question remains: without any knowledge of good or evil how can Adam know/understand the nature or righteousness of obedience or even the necessity of obedience? Such things are only revealed to him after his sin in the garden. He can't know right from wrong until that act takes place.
Nature is then cursed by god as the consequence of that disobedience. Man becomes separate from a corrupt nature since unlike nature he alone might find salvation/relief from his predicament through his new found understanding of obedience.
It's all remarkably ironic.
Contemporary secular/scientific notions of nature employ a similar dichotomy of man separate from nature and ultimately seeing to its ruin... odd, yes? The theme of man as separate and responsible for the ruination of nature, a wonderfully syncretic idea in western thought.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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By and large the problem really isn't a matter of what we think, feel, believe, do, or say.
But rather what equilibrium will look like.
Or at least if we're no smarter than bacteria than this is a pretty typical outcome.
The first phase is the lag phase the cells are active but do not increase very much. The exponential phase follows where a plentiful supply of nutrient and space allow an ever-increasing rate of growth, and bacterial production outstrips bacterial death.
Once the carrying capacity (the maximum population the environment can support), is reached, the population enters the stationary phase where no net change in population occurs. The environment is changed by the bacteria as metabolic waste builds up and the conditions become increasingly difficult. This leads to the death (or final) phase where more cells die that are produced, as a result of waste toxicity, starvation and oxygen shortage; and the population declines.
And that's without much in the way of any external [emergent, microbial] 'accelerants' sweeping through the population from disrupted habitats and ecologies.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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By and large the problem really isn't what we think, feel, do, or say...
Perhaps, but rather how did we get here?
And don't even try to tell me who has the answer.
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