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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Having read through a fair number of responses on this thread I'm struck by the juxtaposition of some posters crying for privacy and freedom, who coincidentally post as a advocate for further government control on numerous other threads.
The cognitive dissonance created by their desire to have government work for them when convenient but appear indignant when its not must be painful.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frumentarii
By the 2nd century, the need for an empire-wide intelligence service was clear. But even an emperor could not easily create a new bureau with the express purpose of spying on the citizens of Rome's far-flung domains. A suitable compromise was found by Hadrian. He envisioned a large-scale operation and turned to the frumentarii. The frumentarius was the collector of wheat in a province, a position that brought the official into contact with enough locals and natives to acquire considerable intelligence about any given territory. Hadrian put them to use as his spies, and thus had a ready-made service and a large body to act as a courier system.
The Frumentarii were the equivalent of the postal service in ancient Rome.
Emperor Hadrian appropriated them for use as his personal spies, because they were ideally suited for intercepting and reading mail sent throughout the Empire.
If you're not doing anything illegal, government spying doesn't affect you. Go back to sleep.
or,
Anyone who objects to wholesale government spying must be doing something illegal, so it is necessary to spy on everyone to find out just who those people are.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Escopeda- I think I can elaborate on that point, as I see it-
As long as the police state is hammering on Ragheads, Niggas, and Mexicans- fine.
But the IRS, DEA, and ATF had better stay clear of my tax evasion, guns, drugs and porn.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2016 - 05:07pm PT
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Escopeta wrote: "I'm struck by the juxtaposition of some posters crying for privacy and freedom, who coincidentally post as a advocate for further government control on numerous other threads"
could be...
without specifics it smells like a straw man...
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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You have skills, find the specifics yourself. In fact, to make the search easier...just hit the "My Settings" link in the upper right-hand corner and click on "Your Forum Posts". Lol
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2016 - 03:26pm PT
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^^^^
nah, if you don't care to have a discussion, i'm good with not wasting energy attempting to read minds...
ie. it's too bad, that with the lines above, you've chosen to drop the depth of argumentation and substantiation back down to a grade school level...
because, actual discussion with you, was, while it lasted, interesting...
so with sincerity, it's too bad that that appears to be a thing of the past.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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I wish I could say the same. As they say, "talkin' ain't doin". This all leads to one outcome anyway. Hope it happens after I die and not visa versa.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Topic Author's Reply - May 9, 2016 - 11:37pm PT
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^^^^
noted.
toodles...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 10, 2016 - 12:08am PT
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Not giving anyone a 'pass', the difference is who they are willing to target. Obama wouldn't target Snowden; W's crew would have in my opinion.
But, the legal confabulations associated with the 'war on terror' - whether it's John Yoo's Quasi-Constitutional Phantom Zone or Obama's - all are designed to erect a shelter of 'due diligence' rather than a finding of outright constitutionality which frankly everyone understands isn't there.
And those legal confabulations around the 'game', be it the Constitution, the Patriot Act, FISA court, or the legal findings associated with the NSA's domestic collection activities - all serve to highlight the basic conundrum: there are real dangerous people out in the world who want to do harm to the US on our soil. The fact acknowledged, the hard question - to steal a line - is, "what are you prepared to do about it?"
Take, say, a small, well-shielded nuke with a gps destination trigger in a shipping container - what lengths would you denizens of ST go to stop it from making port in LA or NY?
I don't see it as a black and white issue; I see it as a terminally grey one with no upsides, no good options, and the price of failure unthinkable. Personally, I don't believe for a minute Bernie would be making much different calls if he were to win the election, it's that brutal.
Probably the best legal rundown on these issues:
And his exploration of the recent roots of the revival of the imperial presidency:
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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May 10, 2016 - 04:30am PT
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50 pages of feigned outrage and concerned analysis and then 99% of the folks (who vote) will put the exact same people in office.
Yeah, you guys are outraged alright. I can really tell this time. Meh
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 10, 2016 - 06:31am PT
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I'm still amused that anyone thinks the president(whoever it may be) really calls the shots anymore...
IMO, the Snowden 'leaks' were the equivalent of the "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU" billboards from Orwell's instruction manual for today. Nobody got arrested, nobody went to jail, nobody lost their jobs. Just enough was leaked to announce the eye of Sauron is upon us. Suppressing dissent becomes critical at the end of empires.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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May 10, 2016 - 07:09am PT
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Only when I'm off my meds.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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May 10, 2016 - 07:12am PT
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I'm still amazed that people think the president is the only thing you vote for anymore in this country....
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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May 10, 2016 - 07:47am PT
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Wow Esco, what a zinger!
Keep up the good work.
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couchmaster
climber
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The conversation of this thread is damned stilted with Rsin and Joe Hedge being deleted along with all their posts. Looks like some folks are yammering to themselves, LOL!
I like a lot of what folks have said up thread. Most of us are right in our views. Even when we disagree. That's how complex this topic is. Enjoyed reading HealyJE's reasoned posts, even - or usually, when we disagree.
Todays Snowden news, great interview with Oliver Stone. He touches on Hillary and Trump as well. Well worth the read of the entire thing: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/oliver-stone-edward-snowden-america-925611 Stone is coming out with a Snowden film. Expected to be a 9 on the rabblerousing scale of 1-10:-)
BTW, 2 big issues. Debt per taxpayer is now $163,000, which is how much YOU owe. YOU. If you cannot pay that bill, then your kids will have to do it. Maybe they'll thank you for that. NOT!
Next- update on Senator Wydens bill noted above, the "secure Data Act" I note above all but got sh#t on (by being ignored) and tossed into the trash.
Introduced: Jan 8, 2015
Status: Referred to Committee on Jan 8, 2015
This bill was assigned to a congressional committee on January 8, 2015, which will consider it before possibly sending it on to the House or Senate as a whole.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Not giving anyone a 'pass', the difference is who they are willing to target. Obama wouldn't target Snowden; W's crew would have in my opinion.
Conversely, Bush never went after Bin Laden, son of a guy the Bush family was partners with in the Carlisle Group.
And the Bin Ladens were the only flight permitted to leave the country when the Towers fell.
No Senate investigation.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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NEVER went after Bin Laden? Proof? Yet another stupid statement by lorenza's oil.
Did they get him?
Again. No senate investigation of ties to Bin Laden family
But we did get. BENGHAZI!!!!!
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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[quote]http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bin-laden-family-evacuated/[/quote]
Common sense says that if the entire nation is on lockdown and no flights get out but bin Laden's brother's plane and he's partners with Bush, the senate might want to ask why.
They asked about BENGHAZI!!!!
Here's another Carlisle group partner, since you mentioned him.
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