Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 7, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
" . . . from all those pages we can clearly see praise and admiration for Maestri."

When a known, Homeric fabricator can be held up as an avatar for "praise and admiration," what does this say about us? What kind of values are we promoting here?

JL

bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Feb 7, 2012 - 03:54pm PT
Kelly Cordes posting is typical of the black vs white, right vs wrong tone of this whole discussion. It is too bad that people still can't seem to see that there are a lot of nuances as to what happened and why for both this most recent event and those which happened in both 1959 and 1971.

I guess it is easier to have a discussion if you boil it down to something pretty simple.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 7, 2012 - 03:56pm PT
Messner is clapping for the chopping made by K&K. Well, not much worth really. What is the weight of a god clapping?

And Kelly Cordes has chosen the polemical way like Enzolino.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Feb 7, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
Both hands, while smiling and enjoying the laughter of the audience. :o/ LOL...

Edited: Messner told a short story about the history of the Compressor route. When it comes to the chopping I enjoyed the seriousness of the question. The clapping answer though was the answer of an old circus-horse enjoying the laughter of the public.
eric Johnstone

Trad climber
B.C.
Feb 7, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
Easier to forgive and look past it if the guy showed even the smallest hint of admitting he may have lied.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Feb 7, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
Did you guys decide who is gonna go back and put them back in yet?
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Feb 8, 2012 - 06:48am PT
Messner is clapping for the chopping made by K&K. Well, not much worth really. What is the weight of a god clapping?

And Kelly Cordes has chosen the polemical way like Enzolino.
Just a few comments.
Everybody knows that Messner is an authoritative figure in the mountaineering world. But this doesn't mean that he is always right.
The fact that he believe that KKK used no bolts shows that he is not so well informed on this issue. However, this is just a detail.

Two of Messner's comments made me laugh.
One of his arguments is about the capabilities of Maestri's time to climb Cerro Torre. If Messner is correct, then he either was a liar in the past, or his argument is pretty weak. There are plenty of achievements which had to wait many years before someone could repeat them. One of them took 42 years, and is the famous "impossible slab" of Sass della Crusc which, according to Messner claims, was freeclimbed by him in 1968 with boots. Here more details about this fascinating story.
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?keyid=37744.
So, according to Donini's standard, because many climbers could no repeat Messner's achievement, at least for 42 years he should be considered a liar!

Now the second comment.
According to Messner now KKK proved that that face was climbable without bolts. Beside the fact that this is not true yet (they used bolts), I find this argument pretty ridiculous. Following the same argument we can say that, Astroman, Half Dome, Hasse Brandler, several routes on the N Face of Grandes Jorasses, the Diretta Americana on the Drus, and so on, were even climbable without pitons or other protections in freesolo. We can say that Everest was climbable the first time without oxygen and fixed ropes.
I believe, on the contrary, that thanks to the "disputable" style of the past, the new generations could face new challenges. I can accept the bolts or pitons removal to enhance the challenge, engagement and wilderness of a route, but this cannot be based on the crucifixion of the style of the past.

Now a personal consideration.
Messner has always been coherent with his ethical beliefs, and I think he is one of the more inspirational pioneers not just in alpinism. But fortunately there have a broad diversity of views about ethics in climbing. Fortunately, the Preuss ethics is not the exclusive one. Fortunately we can also enjoy bolted routes in the mountains, along smooth and unprotectable lines. When Messner was a boy, Bonatti, who had much more media coverage and publicity than Maestri, was his role model. Therefore it is not surprising if he criticized strongly Maestri's style. But it is not written anywhere that Maestri had to align himself to an ethical standard, when this was not so standardized like now. Furthermore, as far as I understood, Maestri was a better rock climber than Bonatti. Bonatti never committed himself in extreme freesolos, like Maestri did.

Alright ... I'll go for lunch to have a nice pasta al pesto ...
Ciao :-)
Enzolino
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Feb 8, 2012 - 08:53am PT
Yet another perspective from someone who was actually there at the time, a now-public circulating letter to Carlos Comesana from Doug Tompkins (courtesy of UKClimbing):

Hi Carlos,

Finally someone chopped those bolts of Maestri off of Cerro Torre. In my way of thinking it is 40 years too late, but better late than never. If there ever was a sacrilege in alpinism this had to take the cake. This bolt ladder had compromised Cerro Torre for all these last four decades, not to mention the slime ball Maestri with his lies, his arrogance and his cowardice. I remember arriving with my wife to his base camp in early 1971 and it was a pig’s stye. We spent two full days picking up the garbage and restoring the area. It was a metaphor for Maestri and all he stood for, the black chapter in Patagonia climbing.

Hats off to Hayden Kennedy and Jason Kruk, they had the courage, the ethics and the climbing style that now has rectified the curse of Maestri and put Cerro Torre back to the dignity it deserves. Let only climbers who have the techniques, the courage and the sense of adventure and human accomplishment that are capable of reaching the summit by the leading standards of contemporary climbing, not reduced to the lowest common denominator by such things as bolt ladders. Today, bolt ladders are obsolete (if ever they were really acceptable), the climbing techniques and standards have blown by all of that, we are in a new era. Those of us having climbed in these past epochs can only salute and admire the work of these young contemporary climbers, and not cry in our cups that the errors of our own era are being even somehow desecrated. That is nothing short of a testimony of the small mindedness of a relatively small group who raise unsophisticated and actually outlandish arguments having nothing to do with real climbing standards. You will not find one top climber in today’s field of world class alpinists who approved of Maestri’s bolt ladder in the first place or who is not happy that it is being chopped out. Fair Means is the password today. Lets not talk of dumbing down climbs or the climbing standards that are always advancing, let’s not have any retreats to the mistakes or lower climbing standards of forty years ago.

Shame on the circle of people who are criticizing these young climbers who just did an heroic feat of alpinism restoring the self respect of the mountain. As a contemporary of Maestri myself, I do not see anything worth preserving of his reputation as a fine alpinist, he left that at the door when he entered the Valley of the Rio de las Vueltas. His ‘legacy’ is that of a liar breaking the tradition of honesty and goodwill that climbing and its spirit of adventure has carried since the sport appeared , the industrialization of the compressor route unheard of in climbing before this or since remains one of the black marks on Alpinism any where in the world until today not to mention the outrage it provoked at the time of putting up the route.

Anyway, I just want to congratulate these excellent young climbers, they will go down in history as the heroes of Cerro Torre for this epoch and they will applaud future climbers who do routes faster and with less equipment and freer yet. For they embody the best spirit of human endeavor. Applause all around ! Let us be sure that we all back up Kennedy and Kruk and not let them get flummoxed for example by strident or hysteric voices swirling there in Chalten or elsewhere. They need our hearty support, they are the heroes.

Best, Doug
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 8, 2012 - 09:15am PT
Enzolino, when you refer to me, please use your brain and be accurate. regarding Maestri and the 1959 climb, i stated that i was a supporter of Maestri's claims UNTIL i actually got on the climb and viewed the evidence. In the early 70's Mountain Magazine was using the argument that Maestri couldn't have done the climb because it was beyond the reach of climbers in 1959, an argument that you say that Messner and I are also using. I, by contrast, decided to approach Torre Egger by the Maestri/Egger line precisely because I believed that they had shown that it could be done.
The evidence that I found when I DID the climb, and have expounded on a number of times, is extremely damning from a number of fronts. If you persist in being delusional about the climb- so be it. I just don't want you to make inaccurate statements about my comments.
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Feb 8, 2012 - 09:19am PT
@Randisi,
thanks for the Kirkegaard quote ... I like it!

Well ... I think "manichean" is an understatement ...

I guess for some people it requires too many neurons to distinguish different shades of grey ... it's much easier to go for black or white ...
Many people may support the chopping of the Compressor, but it depends on the motivation behind ... but I guess some people are too thick to understand this ...

By the way ... sorry for my ignorance ... I was looking through google ... who is this guy (Doug Tompkins) ... is he a climber? Or just a businessman?
Then, is also my uncle opinion relevant to this issue (he is a businessman as well but not a climber)?

Thanks
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 8, 2012 - 09:22am PT
Tompkins climbed the California Route with Chouinard and others in 1969. I believe that it was his only climb in the area.
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Feb 8, 2012 - 09:24am PT
Dear Mr Donini,
Enzolino, when you refer to me, please use your brain and be accurate. regarding Maestri and the 1959 climb, i stated that i was a supporter of Maestri's claims UNTIL i actually got on the climb and viewed the evidence. In the early 70's Mountain Magazine was using the argument that Maestri couldn't have done the climb because it was beyond the reach of climbers in 1959, an argument that you say that Messner and I are also using. I, by contrast, decided to approach Torre Egger by the Maestri/Egger line precisely because I believed that they had shown that it could be done.
The evidence that I found when I DID the climb and have expounded on a number of times is extremely damning from a number of fronts. If you persist in being delusional about the climb- so be it. I just don't want you to make inaccurate statements about my comments.
I apologise for this aspect. I understood that somewhere you used it as an argument.
I'm very skeptical for the 1959 Maestri's claims. Actually, I tend not to believe his story. However, I don't think this is a sufficient reason to crucify him through a media propaganda.
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Feb 8, 2012 - 09:26am PT
@Donini,
Tompkins climbed the California Route with Chouinard and others in 1969. I believe that it was his only climb in the area.
Thanks.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 8, 2012 - 09:28am PT
Thanks for the clarification Enzolino, I guess we will just continue to disagree on this point.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Feb 8, 2012 - 09:30am PT
The California Route on Fitzroy.
enzolino

climber
Galgenen, Switzerland
Feb 8, 2012 - 09:32am PT
Thanks for the clarification Enzolino, I guess we will just continue to disagree on this point.
Yes. I agree to disagree.
uli__

climber
Milan, Italy
Feb 8, 2012 - 09:48am PT
@Randisi

Another Manichean!

at this point I dunno, really!

It seems to me that some kind of rethoric "heroes of Cerro Torre"???, "the best spirit of human endeavor"??? is triyng to sell that new vanguard of Alpinism will be

 not in opening new routes (as there are none for those bad as#@&%es of our fathers stolen them all from us to be climbed "by fair means" ???)

 rather than in unbolting them (I cant believe that it was the only offenisive route in the world) after having climbed some few feet apart of their (reassuring) bolt ladder and having used only few expansion bolts (only few? fair means)

heroes??? please tell me your're kidding!!!


TwistedCrank

climber
Ideeho-dee-do-dah-day boom-chicka-boom-chicka-boom
Feb 8, 2012 - 10:22am PT
there are no heroes in climbing unless grace under pressure results in lives saved
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 8, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
Yeah, absolutely, for years I've been pushing for the Half Dome cables to be replaced with a set of non-elitist escalators.
BlackSpider

Ice climber
Feb 8, 2012 - 03:35pm PT
The cables will withstand Climber Fundamentalism, no problem.

I'm sure they will.

The question is, will they withstand NPS bureaucrats?
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