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PP
Trad climber
SF,CA
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Apr 13, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
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good article in the Daily Kos about a town in germany that has gone nuclear free. there are alot of options besides nuclear.especially conservation. It's politics and money that is trying to promote nuclear. One major flaw of nuclear is they all seem to be placed right next to a major water body . If the sh#t really hits the fan it goes into the water. Large bath tubs storing fuel rods in areas where there are 9.0 earthquakes; how absurd is that?! 300 year old rocks saying don't build lower than here, but they do it anyway. Poor science at work. What is downstream of TMI probably the chesapeake bay, but I haven't checked. when they designed these in the 60's water bodies were considered places for sewage. Nuclear is just a really complicated way to do more shitting in the nest. Fukushima is a timely wake up call.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 13, 2011 - 03:40pm PT
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http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp/daiichi-photos.htm
The above shows some good overview pictures of the destruction. Since I live in an energy rich area that provides way more energy than we generate, and it is an area with Nuclear, Gas fired, wind, hydro, and coal within about a 60 mile radius, well, I respect your opinion but I would respect it much more if you had it in your back yard.
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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Apr 13, 2011 - 04:23pm PT
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golsen... Thanx for those pics. A colleague and I are trying to determine where the EDGs are, so it would be helpful to find some 'before' hi-res pics as well. We don't know the plant layout, but recognize many structures, even the pits where the SW & CW Pumps used to be, the equipment vault and spent fuel pool in Unit 2, and even the drywell dome (yellow/orange object) in Unit 4, since it was in an outage, so it is off to the side.
It looks to us that the EDGs are housed in out-buildings on the inland side of the Reactor Buildings, judging by the vents in those buildings, but we want to see all of the buildings before the tsunami hit, as most on the Service Water side is gone.
The EDGs ran as expected until the tsunami hit... That is known. From what he has gathered from an SRO is that the tsunami flooded the space where the underground diesel storage tanks that supply the EDGs are housed, and that water got into the tanks... The water, being denser, went to the bottom of the tanks, where they draw from, and that salt water got into the EDGs taking them out. He believes with minor work, they could be brought back online.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Apr 13, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
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In radical's link.
In the parking lot, I spotted a panel with one of those messages typically seen at industrial or construction sites. It was a billboard erected by the "TEPCO Fukushima-1 Nuclear Power Plant Safety Committee."
The message, obviously unchanged since March 11, makes what can only be read now as an extremely ironic proclamation: "This month's safety slogan: Be sure to check everything and do a risk assessment. Zero disasters for this year."
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 13, 2011 - 04:45pm PT
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We will find out years from now when Americans are dying from the effects of this, that this was far worse then we were informed, and that we are ingesting and drinking radioactive particles in our drinking water as we speak. A cover up on a massive scale so as to not alarm the population and have any negative effect on the economy or impact Japan or nuclear power here in the US.
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corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
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Apr 13, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
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The idea of not panicking the public by downplaying the severity of any disaster is such a standard practice in most societies that it makes me wonder.
It does seem like the best course. To slowly day by day get the public
used to the idea that something is wrong to lessen the shock by withholding
bad news.
Getting everyone acclimated to a new unpleasant reality while
repeating the mantra 'its being handled by experts' and 'there is
no danger'.
Here we are a month later, calmly getting on with our lives
while thousands of tons of nuclear fuel rods smolder in the ruins.
Who would have guessed?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2011 - 07:28pm PT
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From the democacy Now site where they interview Dr. Michio Kaku
The Japanese government is trying to calm fears about radiation levels and food safety in the region around the heavily damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power facility, even as it has raised the severity rating of the crisis to the highest possible level. "Radiation is continuing to leak out of the reactors. The situation is not stable at all," says Dr. Michio Kaku, professor of theoretical physics at the City University of New York and the City College of New York. "The slightest disturbance could set off a full-scale meltdown at three nuclear power stations, far beyond what we saw at Chernobyl."
Listen here
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/4/13/expert_despite_japanese_govt_claims_of
Peace
Karl
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 13, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
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Studly, I assume you are thinking conspiracy theory? So all the National Lab and EPA and other agency rad monitors in the USA are in on the conspiracy? Guys like Ed,Adam, myself who work on either government projects, nuclear reactors or work for the government are lying to keep our jobs?
While I am not responsible for any of the "measurements", I do work for the Department of Energy. There is nothing that I have worked on that is worth lying or dying for and that is why I find your comments not only insulting but highly ignorant of the current risks people right here in the US face everyday.
The unfortunate part of all this is that people flip their switch and don't give it any more thought than that, out of sight, out of mind. As long as the power is generated miles away from their house they dont care.
So forgive me if I find the anti-nuclear response somewhat disingenuous following a huge natural catastrophe. Wonder why the nuclear industry has not advanced as much as it could have? Because of the over-reaction to TMI and people not willing to make fair comparisons to current technologies, companies and politicians have not invested in improvements. The unfortunate part of this is that we are all losers and choking on the fumes from coal fired power plants that produce 45% of our energy.
Furthermore, those of you who said that the Japanese reactors are state of the art are incorrect. That technology is 40 years old. 40 years ago we were programming computers with punch cards if you were actually lucky enough to have access to one.
For the past two days I have been up near the largest concentration of highly radioactive waste in the US, possibly the world. I drove by one Nuclear Generating Powerplant to get there. I am for more concerned with getting hit on the way home from work.
EDIT:
Adam, if I get any before shots I will post them. Not being a nuclear reactor expert I am sure your guess at the location of the EDG's is better than mine.
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hb81
climber
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Apr 13, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
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Adam, where did you find these pictures? Were they just released?
I have not seen any pics of the tsunami hitting Fukushima in the media so far...
Oh and one more question: if the diesel tanks are underground, what do they store in those large white tanks that can be seen next to the reactor buildings? Water?
As for your theory about water coming into the tanks and being pumped into the generators: What about the idea that they just got drowned in the flood and malfunctioned? Or are they located high off the ground?
Edit: just read that you said they are (or at least should be) behind watertight doors. Considering the pressure and force of the tsunami wave I wonder if those doors held...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
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Golsen wrote
For the past two days I have been up near the largest concentration of highly radioactive waste in the US, possibly the world. I drove by one Nuclear Generating Powerplant to get there. I am for more concerned with getting hit on the way home from work.
So Golsen, How many guys with machine guns would it take to break in to where that highly radioactive waste is stored and put a bomb there to spread it everywhere? Wouldn't it be WAY easier than the 9-11 plot?
Just sayin'
Safe Smafe, science hasn't even begun to consider all the risks. We have no waste solution and if modern nuclear tech is so safe, why will nobody insure them still (cause Insurance companies aren't irrational dupes like us right?)
Even the latest technology doesn't mean a spent fuel pool isn't vulnerable to a terrorist attack from a plane or group of armed men who don't care for their lives. Why do we need solutions that are not only expensive but deadly in ways that solar, wind, Biofuels from Algae or many other technologies are. If billions are poured elsewhere, elsewhere becomes more economical.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2011 - 08:01pm PT
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and I'd like to repost something from Jan that didn't make the news widely. Just shows that this Fuku mess isn't just a fluke and how easy it could be repeated, even after we've already seen what's already happened.
"...The New York Times is reporting that after the latest 7.1 aftershock, two other reactors lost their cooling and had diesel generator failures. Both of those plants are to the north of the Fukushima complex.
The plants suffered temporary losses of cooling to spent fuel pools after electricity cutoffs and problems with backup diesel generators. The Higashidori plant lost all outside power. Although it had three backup diesel generators, two were out of service for periodic maintenance. The remaining one worked for a while, but later, after some outside power was restored, it stopped because some of its oil spilled out.
At the Onagawa plant, three out of four outside power lines went down, but the plant continued to operate on the fourth line. Although diesel backup was not needed, it was discovered that one of the plant’s two diesel generators had been out of order since April 1.
..."
Aftershocks were far from unexpected...
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 13, 2011 - 08:16pm PT
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In all seriousness, I cannot say because it would compromise security. However, I will say that to get there one would need to go through the first checkpoint about 20 miles from the waste. This can be found on a public map.
Keep in mind the waste I am referring to is from the Manhattan project and the cold war (weapons production) and I am in no way condoning the generation of that waste, my job is to clean it up.
Also keep in mind Karl, that there are more chemical plants which offer a much easier terrorist target than most nuclear sites.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
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A few years ago some college girls got entrance to spent fuel pool with backpacks on just by smiling and asking. I have trouble believing that bombing any chemical plant would have quite the terrorist impact as bombing a nuclear site near a major city.
Peace
Karl
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Apr 13, 2011 - 08:25pm PT
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You remember Bohpal, right? No bomb's just poor safety management.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Apr 13, 2011 - 08:32pm PT
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So the basic suggestion here is that we need to dramatically decentralize our life support systems
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Apr 13, 2011 - 08:57pm PT
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Just because there is something else that is dangerous doesn't mean we should ignore the danger of nuclear energy. As for your example of driving being more dangerous. If you die in an accident, that doesn't mean that road is closed for the next 1000 years. This is the problem with nuclear energy. Its waste is dangerous for a very very long time. I can chose to risk my life driving, or breathing coal dust, but do I have the right to risk closing large areas of land for generation after generation.
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jstan
climber
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Apr 13, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
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I suppose increased concentrations of radioactive nuclides in the water of the spent rod pool could come about by at least two, and probably more, mechanisms.
1. The spent rods had reached a temperature elevated enough to allow leaching into the sea water.
2. Rods had melted and flowed together thereby increasing the critical mass.
But I am just supposing. Experts on this board can probably help here.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42578432/ns/world_news-asiapacific/
More signs of fuel rod damage at Japan nuke plant
Utility says it is still working on a blueprint to end radiation crisis
msnbc.com staff and news service reports
updated 1 hour 19 minutes ago
TOKYO — Water in the spent fuel storage pool at the No. 4 reactor at Japan's crippled Fukushima nuclear plant has risen to about 194 degrees in one sign that spent fuel rods may be damaged, according to a report in NHK World.
The Tokyo Electric Power Company or TEPCO discovered Tuesday that the temperature was much higher than the normal level of about 104 degrees.
The finding is the latest setback for the utility company as it tries to contain damage at the nuclear plant, devastated by a March 11 tsunami and now rated on a par with the world's worst nuclear accident, the 1986 Chernobyl disaster. TEPCO said Wednesday it was still working on a detailed plan to end the country's nuclear crisis as tests showed radiation levels in the sea near the complex had spiked.
Engineers moved a step closer to emptying highly radioactive water from one of six crippled reactors, which would allow them to start repairing the cooling system crucial to regaining control of the plant.
Japan's nuclear safety agency said the latest tests showed radiation nearly doubled last week, to 23 times above legal limits, in the sea off Minamisoma city near the plant.
But radiation in Tokyo, 150 miles from the plant, had fallen to pre-disaster levels on Tuesday, the science ministry said late Wednesday.
TEPCO's analysis of a 400-milliliter water sample taken Tuesday from the No. 4 unit's spent nuclear fuel pool revealed the damage to some fuel rods for the first time, according to Kyodo News. The sample detected higher-than-usual levels of radioactive iodine-131, cesium-134 and cesium-137.
The storage pool at the No. 4 reactor housed all the fuel rods that were in operation at the reactor, NHK World reported. Since the quake and tsunami, TEPCO has used fire engines and special vehicles to spray more than 1,800 tons of water to try to cool the rods at the No. 4 reactor.
University of Tokyo Professor Koji Okamoto told NHK World that the temperature of 90 degrees indicates that cooling is continuing, although some of the water in the pool may be boiling.
Okamoto said high radiation indicates the possibility of radiation leaks from damaged fuel.
Slowing the recovery effort, a series of strong aftershocks this week has rattled eastern Japan, forcing temporary evacuations of workers and power outages at the nuclear plant.
"As instructed by Prime Minister Kan we are working out the specific details of how to handle the situation so they can be disclosed as soon as possible," TEPCO president Masataka Shimizu told a news conference in Tokyo.
Shimizu has been largely absent from the recovery operation, only visiting the area on Monday. He refused to comment on public calls for his resignation, and again apologized to the Japanese people for the crisis.
"We are making the utmost effort to bring the reactors at Fukushima Dai-ichi to a cold shutdown and halt the spread of radiation," he said.
TEPCO's Tokyo head office has been the target of angry protests over the nuclear crisis , and authorities took no chances on Wednesday, with riot trucks and security officers guarding the front gate during the news conference.
The government earlier this week revised its rating of the severity of the crisis to level 7, the worst possible on an international scale. The only other level 7 was the 1986 disaster at the Chernobyl plant in what is now Ukraine, though that explosion released 10 times the radioactivity that has come from Fukushima Dai-ichi so far.
But experts were quick to point out the two crises were vastly different in terms of radiation contamination, and on Wednesday, Russia's nuclear chief said Japan was exaggerating the scope of the disaster.
"It is hard for me to assess why the Japanese colleagues have taken this decision. I suspect, this is more of a financial issue, than a nuclear one," Sergei Kiriyenko said on the sidelines of a meeting of major economies in southern China.
There have been fears of contamination among Japan's neighbors, but China said the impact there had been small, noting the radiation was just 1 percent of what it had experienced from Chernobyl.
The toll of the disaster is rising. More than 13,000 people have been confirmed dead, and on Wednesday the government cut its outlook for the economy, in deflation for almost 15 years, for the first time in six months.
"The biggest risks, or uncertain factors for the economy, are when power supplies will recover, whether the nuclear situation will keep from worsening," Economics Minister Kaoru Yosano said.
The total cost of the triple catastrophe has been estimated at $300 billion, making it the world's most costly natural disaster. TEPCO said it was working on a compensation plan.
The Yomiuri newspaper reported on Wednesday that the government may cap TEPCO's liability to as little as $24 billion for damages. Bank of America-Merrill Lynch has estimated compensation claims of more than $130 billion.
Seawater radiation spike
Radiation readings in seawater near the crippled plant spiked last week, Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said Wednesday.
Seawater samples collected on Monday from around nine miles off the coast of Minamisoma city showed radiation in the water rose to 23 times the legal limit from 9.3 times on April 7, said Hidehiko Nishiyama, a NISA deputy director-general.
He later said NISA had asked TEPCO to assess the quake resistance of the buildings, and to look into how they could be reinforced against aftershocks.
"We need to think about how these aftershocks are affecting the buildings, which are already damaged," he said.
Japan has expanded the 12-mile evacuation zone around the plant because of high accumulated radiation.
No radiation-linked deaths have been reported and only 21 plant workers have been affected by minor radiation sickness.
Still, the increase in the severity level heightens the risk of diplomatic tension with Japan's neighbors over radioactive fallout. Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao told Kan on Tuesday he was "concerned" about the release of radiation into the ocean.
To cool the fuel, TEPCO sprayed 195 tons of water for 6 hours on Wednesday morning.
The company thinks the pool's water level was about 5 meters lower than normal, but 2 meters above the fuel rods, NHK World reported.
TEPCO believes the water level is likely to rise by about one meter after the water spraying on Wednesday.
The Associated Press, Reuters, Kyodo News and NHK World contributed to this report.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Apr 13, 2011 - 09:42pm PT
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Sorry you feel so offended golsen. I don't know about any conspiracy theory, but you sound like a shill to me. Nobody knows exactly what and how much is coming out of that plant, and we are all downwind of it, and nobody knows how harmful that effect will be with it in drinking water, milk, plants, and animals or in what concentrations it is ending up in different places here in the US.
I have been following a website that tracks the atmospheric transport of the Fukushima nuclear fallout as well as the volcano fallout that has effected Europe from the Eyjafjallajokull volcano in Iceland. This website was developed largely due to grants from the European Space Agency. It is pretty sobering to see waves of fallout hitting us here in the US even if they are just estimations since no one knows exactly how much is coming out. But this website allows you to see that much of it stays togather in concentrations as it hits up and down the west coast and then spreads inland thru satellite data.
http://transport.nilu.no/products/fukushima
Click on the graph links on the right of the page.
Heres a current snapsnot of fallout coming at the Aleutians right now, and looks like California has a little nuclear haze...
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