Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 09:46pm PT
|
Werner, let me hazard a new guess.
They beamed 27 'black op' ninja teams dressed in metamaterial cloaks into the buildings seconds before impact where they severed supporting beams with their light sabres with no one the wiser and then beamed out again just in time. I've been trying to do my part and keep that secret up til now, but damn, you're on to me.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 09:56pm PT
|
"Werner, I may be in Oregon, but I both know exactly how long it takes to rip out and seamlessly repair dry wall and what it would take to hang a building's worth of detonator wires. I also know the [in]competence levels of our government and the limits on its capabilities. What is suggested here vastly exceeds all of them."
Which is making the brash assumption that the claims of the 9-11 truthers are barking up the right tree. If a gov black opps operation had any sense, they'd cover their tracks with disinformation.
ie, if you were to run CIA drugs out of Laos to finance black ops, you'd want to make up some lie about how it was genetically engineered drugs designed to create robotic thinking in the target destination so anyone on your tail looked silly.
But yeah, can you acknowledge the CIA ran opium and heroin during the Vietnam era? How many Americans know it? I met veterans who saw it first hand but who knows right?
PEace
Karl
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 09:59pm PT
|
Wasn't Nikola Tesla involved somehow?
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 15, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
|
Your getting close there MH. Werner thinks energy weapons may be involved in the other thread.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 02:28am PT
|
Healyje, you classically reveal government ignorance.
With the Iraq and Afghan war boondoggles having produced countless accusations by high and mid level government officials openly stating, with their names, that they were not told about critical information from other agencies, that resulted in numerous major damages, including the current war in Iraq itself based on weapons of mass production, and laws being passed attempting to force agencies to start sharing information that is still not shared because of normal personal and agency rivalry inherent to the design of humans, your suggestions that there are no black or any color ops going on that are not known about by a single concluding government decision maker, reveals classic government ignorance, nay, unmitigated stupidity since it is so obvious.
With verifiably credible government personnel, some in high positions, periodically "blowing the whistle" on inherently ongoing illegal agency activities, including "black ops", some of far-reaching damages, of inherently corrupted government, your ludicrous suggestion that no such "ops" are operating, are ludicrous, much to the amusement of SuperTopo colleagues.
With high government officials routinely using the metaphor of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing in their own government agencies, your suggestions are left in one of those hands.
What time it is? I'm outta here.
Wait. Because of my army "credentials", during the Vietnam adventure I was encouraged by an Air America pilot to get one of the lucrative flying jobs that expressly included saying nothing about the air transport of burlap bundles from Cambodian highland opium regions, to what might be known heroin production areas, under CIA contract. To suggest that is not happening in Afghanistan and Pakistan would be to parrot the Healyje intelligence officer reports of the Vietnam and Contra adventures. "We are the government. We can do no wrong. Only wackos suggest otherwise."
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 04:31am PT
|
You guys kill me. You don't seem to be able to separate political, legal, and technical shenanigans from covert military ops, and particularly domestic military action. There are plenty of covert political agendas and intel activities; some over the past eight years have even risen to the level of treason. The rendition and contracted interrogation programs were examples of well-bounded, easy-to-manage operations as were the surveillance programs conducted with the airlines and telecom companies. Similarly on the military side, it's small, well-bounded ops like last weeks Somalia raid to kill Saleh Ali Saleh Nabhan that succeed - big ops get messy fast and things start to exponentially f*#k up the more players there are involved. There is a degree of acceptable slop and play when things get messy in third world countries - there is no such leeway in a domestic op.
As for the "secret counterterrorism program" Panetta killed, it's not hard to tell it from what little has been made public that it was a complete, out-of-control, macho clusterf*#k from the get go and likely only survived as long as it did because it was Cheney's pet project. And Oregon is the home of Evergreen Aviation, the CIA's favorite airline, so yes, between my time here and in Vietnam I'm well aware of the CIA drug ops in both SE Asia and Central America (as well as Evergreen's role in extraordinary rendition since 9/11). Those operations are closer to the mark of direct action, but both drug operations were complete circuses and neither were much of a secret. The senior staff was well aware of those bumbling ops and even provided occasional logistical support when it was unavoidable. Hell, for that matter, one pound sheets of Paki hash were being consumed onboard the frigging USPACOM flagship.
I can assure you nothing of any significance happening on the ground in Pakistan or Afganistan (or any of the AOR countries) by any U.S. unit, agency, or contractor is escaping Mullen, Petraeus, McChrystal, or the rest of the CENTCOM's senior staff - McChrystal in particular is a freak for details and currently is the goto guy for 'black ops'.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 10:09am PT
|
Healyje, how dare you question the infinite wisdom of Buchanababble when he attempts to show us sheeple the light?
|
|
Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 11:16am PT
|
Doug, I am glad you have made a triumphant return! As a fellow Alaskan Alpine Club member, I salute you and I laugh robustly!
"Humans, the greatest show on earth"
|
|
pedge
Trad climber
SW
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 11:20am PT
|
Did I miss it? I just wanted to know what the explanation is for why the people who brought us 911 declined to bring us some WMD in Iraq. I'm sure there is an explanation, I just haven't heard it. If 911 was orchestrated to legitimize their war plans, why didn't they fake finding some WMD in Iraq? It would have been easier than the 911 deal and the failure to find any WMD did their cause a lot of harm.
|
|
fluffy
Trad climber
chainsaw city
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 12:27pm PT
|
"the failure to find any WMD did their cause a lot of harm."
not really
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
|
Sorta disgraceful and weird that almost nobody who was seriously a part of 9-11 or the anthrax plot were ever caught, procecuted or punished, despite trillion dollar efforts that managed to kill hundreds of thousands and created millions of homeless refugees! Who ARE the real criminals, the ones who killed 4 thousand innocents or hundreds of thousands?
Bin Laden and Zawahiri (if they really had anything to do with it, there is little proof and Bin Laden's "confession" video doesn't even look like him) are free. The Taliban leader is free. The anthrax case was never solved despite knowing where the bugs came from (the US!) and the Saudi's, who supplied money and almost all the hijackers, never even felt a sweat!
Who knows if Shiek Mohammed was the mastermind? It's many years later and practically no evidence is forthcoming?
How did we find so little out about 9-11 and catch almost nobody?
I don't know what happened but I do know that the mainstream doesn't know either.
peace
Karl
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
|
The "only" harm not finding WMD did was cause the GOP to lose
both the Senate and House in the 2006 midterms, and also the
Presidency in 2008, along with even more losses in Congress.
|
|
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
|
Jay Wood asked me for references in engineering and science journals. I did ONE search in ONE database using the term "World Trade Center". It returned 511. Here are references from page 1, relevant to 9/11.
Happy?
(sorry, I don't have time to read them all and look for specific criticisms, but a quick glance at the abstracts indicates that these scientists indeed think that these tower were brought down by a couple of fuel-laden jets resulting in high fire temperatures melting the steel. No explosives needed!)
Dominant factor in the collapse of WTC-1
Miamis, Konstantinos (School of Civil Engineering, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette, IN 47907); Irfanoglu, Ayhan; Sozen, Mete A. Source: Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities, v 23, n 4, p 203-208, 2009
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Advances in research on fire engineering of steel structures
Wang, Yong (Department of Civil Engineering, University of Manchester, United Kingdom) Source: Proceedings of the Institution of Civil Engineers: Civil Engineering, v 162, n 3, p 129-135, August 2009
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Thermal and structural response of two-storey two-bay composite steel frames under furnace loading
Dong, Y.L. (School of Civil Engineering, Harbin Institute of Technology, 202 Haihe Road, Nangang District, Harbin, 150090, China); Zhu, E.C.; Prasad, K. Source: Fire Safety Journal, v 44, n 4, p 439-450, May 2009
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
A two-step approach to progressive collapse analysis of building structures under blast loading
Xu, Jun-Xiang (Department of Civil Engineering, Shanghai Jiaotong University, Shanghai 200240, China); Liu, Xi-La Source: Journal of Shanghai Jiaotong University (Science), v 14 E, n 4, p 393-397, August 2009
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Modeling pre-evacuation delay by occupants in World Trade Center Towers 1 and 2 on September 11, 2001
Kuligowski, Erica D. (National Institute of Standards and Technology, 100 Bureau Drive, Mailstop 8664, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8664, United States); Mileti, Dennis S. Source: Fire Safety Journal, v 44, n 4, p 487-496, May 2009
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
A high-quality high-fidelity visualization of the September 11 attack on the world trade center
Rosen, Paul (Computer Science Department, Purdue University, 305 North University Street, West Lafayette, IN 47907-2107); Popescu, Voicu; Hoffmann, Christoph; Irfanoglu, Ayhan Source: IEEE Transactions on Visualization and Computer Graphics, v 14, n 4, p 937-947, July-August 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
World Trade Center building disaster: Stimulus for innovations
Kodur, V.K.R. (Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Michigan State University, United States) Source: Indian Concrete Journal, v 82, n 1, p 23-31, January 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Approximating the evacuation of the World Trade Center north tower using computer simulation
Galea, E.R. (Fire Safety Engineering Group, The University of Greenwich, London SE10 9LS, United Kingdom); Sharp, G.; Lawrence, P.J.; Holden, R. Source: Journal of Fire Protection Engineering, v 18, n 2, p 85-115, May 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Biomonitoring of perfluorochemicals in plasma of New York state personnel responding to the world trade center disaster
Tao, Lin (Wadsworth Center, New York State Department of Health, State University of New York at Albany, Empire State Plaza, Albany, NY 12201-0509); Kannan, Kurunthachalam; Aldous, Kenneth M.; Mauer, Matthew P.; Eadon, George A. Source: Environmental Science and Technology, v 42, n 9, p 3472-3478, May 1, 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Structural design for fire in tall buildings
Gurley, Colin (TAFENSW, Sydney Institute of Technology, Ultimo, 2007, Australia) Source: Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction, v 13, n 2, p 93-97, 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Multi-laboratory testing of a screening method for world trade center (WTC) collapse dust
Rosati, Jacky A. (U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Research and Development (ORD), Research Triangle Park, NC 27711, United States); Bern, Amy M.; Willis, Robert D.; Blanchard, Fredrick T.; Conner, Teri L.; Kahn, Henry D.; Friedman, David Source: Science of the Total Environment, v 390, n 2-3, p 514-519, Febrary 15, 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Recent advances in fire-structure analysis
Duthinh, Dat (National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), Materials and Construction Research Division, Bldg. and Fire Research Laboratory, Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8611, United States); McGrattan, Kevin; Khaskia, Abed Source: Fire Safety Journal, v 43, n 2, p 161-167, February 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Progressive collapse of the World Trade Center: Simple analysis
Seffen, K.A. (Structures Group, Dept. of Engineering, Univ. of Cambridge, Trumpington St., Cambridge CB2 1PZ, United Kingdom) Source: Journal of Engineering Mechanics, v 134, n 2, p 125-132, February 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Engineering perspective of the collapse of WTC-I
Irfanoglu, Ayhan (Department of Civil Engineering, School of Civil Engineering, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette, IN 47907); Hoffmann, Christoph M. Source: Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities, v 22, n 1, p 62-67, 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Where to from here?
Lowe, P.G. (University of Sydney) Source: Magazine of Concrete Research, v 60, n 8, p 569-574, October 2008, Morley Symposium on Concrete Plasticity - Part I
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Discussion of "Mechanics of progressive collapse: Learning from world trade center and building demolitions" by Zdenek P. Bazant and Mathieu Verdure
Szuladzinski, Gregory Source: Journal of Engineering Mechanics, v 134, n 10, p 913-915, 2008
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Fire and concrete structures
Bilow, David N. (Engineered Structures, Portland Cement Association, 5420 Old Orchard Road, Skokie, IL 60077); Kamara, Mahmoud E. Source: Proceedings of the 2008 Structures Congress - Structures Congress 2008: Crossing the Borders, v 314, 2008, Proceedings of the 2008 Structures Congress - Structures Congress 2008: Crossing the Borders
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
Thermal and structural response of a two-story, two bay composite steel frame under fire loading
Dong, Yuli (Harbin Institute of Technology, China); Prasad, Kuldeep Source: Proceedings of the Combustion Institute, v 32 II, p 2543-2550, 2009, Proceedings of the Combustion Institute - 32nd International Symposium on Combustion
Language: English
Database: Compendex
Compilation and indexing terms, Copyright 2009 Elsevier Inc.
|
|
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 01:41pm PT
|
also note: many of these engineers are not in the US! They therefore couldn't be gagged by the US gov't, now could they?
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
|
Doesn't matter, they're all part of the plot.
|
|
cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
|
^^^^^^^^^^^
Ha Ha, obviously!
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 02:34pm PT
|
Haha Rox, why the heck would the conspirators want to bring down the towers in a controlled way?
You would want to do as much damage to the entire area if you wanted to make the biggest justification for war.
Or are you still stuck on that "if a skyscraper does not fall over its a controlled demo" idea?
Those published articles are out there for review by other scientists and engineers. That's the way the system works.
Queue the Nazi and sheep pics.
|
|
pedge
Trad climber
SW
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
|
I knew there was an explanation for not faking finding any WMD, but still, I don’t understand what you have said. Bio-toxins might be genetically traceable, but is the same true for nerve gas? Maybe poison gasses are not that effective in battle, but I got the impression that we were looking for such things and calling them WMD, and basing that in part, on Sadam’s previous use of them against eh Kurds.
Even if the failure to find WMD didn’t cause the Bush administration as much harm as some of us might think, wouldn’t it have helped their cause to find some, given the UN justifications, and the argument that could have been made that if there was some there, it could have been distributed to terrorists anywhere? Wouldn’t you just expect them to have planted some trace nerve gas or something along the way? You can’t really believe it would have been more difficult to do that than to plot 911 and keep all the conspirators totally silent?
Your attempts to cover any problems with the conspiracy by resorting to the sorts of arguments raised don’t make much sense.
|
|
stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
|
|
|
Sep 16, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
|
Actually the gases in WWI were unfortunately a pretty effective weapon. They caused alot of panic, disrupting tactics, and they caused alot of injuries, requiring significant resources to treat them.
However, these effects were magnified by the trench nature the WW1 conflict. There wouldn't necessarily be such issues today.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 16, 2009 - 03:16pm PT
|
I’m ashamed that National Geographic has stooped so low to be involved in a “hit-piece” on the truth of 9-11-01. I haven’t seen the program they did, I would like to, but reading the criticisms that those who know the truth and are pursuing the truth have to say regarding the NGS program -- it is USDA grade bovine dung. Shameful. I like National Geographic and have a natural affinity to them since my background is Physical Geography/Earth Science, and Physics. They have always done great programming, but now they have taken up the cause to white wash the truth regarding 9-11-01. Come on NGS. Get real.
Sep 11, 2009
National Geographic Channel on 9/11: Manipulation vs. Objectivity — Dwain Deets and Gregg Roberts
http://www.ae911truth.org/info/92
One of the really great points of the article above is the discussion on conspiracies and peoples’ knee-jerk reaction to dismiss them. Conspiracies happen, they are real, and they can even involve and implicate the US Government.
Case in point. How many of you are aware that we solved MLK Jr. assassination? We solved it and James Earl Ray wasn’t the assassin. The full truth of the matter is now known, and I’m blown away. I did not know this and I’m pretty sure most of us do not know this. M$M did not cover this in any major way. One of the most tragic events in our US history solved, and the M$M is quiet about it. How come America? Conspiracies happen and yes sometimes our US Government pulls them off. You cannot use the argument that our government is not capable or would not do such a thing. You got to get your head out of the sand, and stop drinking the cool-aid, and wake up. Perhaps if they can kill Dr. MLK Jr., they can kill others just as well, JFK for instance. You think they can also kill US citizens in a 9-11 false flag op? No doubt. We are fodder to them sometimes. Wow, they can even keep it secret for an incredibly long time. It took 30 years or so to solve the assassination of MLK and to identify the guilty in a court of law.
“Had any of the show’s producers bothered to research Dr. William Pepper’s exoneration of Martin Luther King’s alleged assassin, James Earl Ray, in a civil trial in 1999, they would have learned that there was in fact a bona fide conspiracy to murder King that was conducted by agencies within the US government and the Memphis police department. US Army snipers followed orders, taking up a position as backup shooters, without knowing why they were so ordered. They were never ordered to shoot because the primary shooter did his job. After realizing what they had been made part of, several of them left the US and went into hiding, two of them returning reluctantly and courageously to testify at the trial. The jury rendered a rapid verdict in favor of the King family’ endorsing the evidence and conclusions that Pepper presented. Real conspirators were exposed and identified, proving that these types of activities do in fact occur, but are kept almost completely out of public awareness with the help of media collaborators like the NGC producers. This victory for truth in the King case creates the disturbing dissonance that comes before comfortable lies give way to uncomfortable but ultimately empowering truths. It would have established a critical precedent, of which there are others, for people to understand the horrible reality of 9/11. Maria Gilardin of TUC Radio has an excellent interview with William Pepper telling the truth behind the King assassination.”
Actual Audio highlights from the trial in 1999:
http://www.tucradio.org/2008_03_19MLKtrial.mp3
http://www.tucradio.org/2008_03_26MLKtrial.mp3
Dr. William Pepper’s books on the solving of MLK Jr’s assassination, the actual trial, and the fact that the jury found the defendant guilty, and the implication of all involved including organized crime, our government: the CIA and 8 members of a US Special Forces unit.
Why doesn’t everyone in the World know this?
An Act of State: The Execution of Martin Luther King, New and Updated Edition (Paperback) by William F. Pepper (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Act-State-Execution-Martin-Luther/dp/1859846955/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253127719&sr=1-1
The 13th Juror: The Official Transcript of the Martin Luther King Assassination Conspiracy Trial (Paperback) by MLK The Truth LLC (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/13th-Juror-Transcript-Assassination-Conspiracy/dp/1442112158/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253127719&sr=1-2
I have these books on my Amazon wish list now. I will read them completely. We have to know the truth no matter the pain involved.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!