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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 26, 2009 - 07:09pm PT
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It's nice that you fellows are so friendly that "howweirddean" becomes "howie". In context of this thread it makes some sense. The only trouble is that there is someone on ST who goes by "Howie", who's apparently from Alberta. It could get confusing. Perhaps HWD would be better.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 26, 2009 - 07:30pm PT
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Howie...you are troll...plain and simple and in my opinion do not deserve a legitimate response.
Your efforts here are outdated and so rockclimbing.com.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 26, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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Howie/lois and whoever else you may be wrote: Bob,
And you base these erudite opinions on what? I am "outdated" because.......
You have a history here.
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Jul 27, 2009 - 01:11am PT
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Pardon me for interrupting your pizzing contest, but here's some food for thought-provided you are the thinking type.
First,I've read all of your posts on this incident, yet I have to wonder have any of you ever been a LEO in a similar situation?It's clear to me from the tone of many of the "stupid cop" comments that you "stupid cop" folks would have reacted far worse than the officer involved and you don't even hesitate to criticize the officer.
Secondly, as an officer in the field, how far does the first amendment extend w/r/t maintaining order? Are you free to calmly call the officer names? Can you scream at him/her as long as you're not yelling "fire" in a movie theater?
Lastly, when (if ever) should an officer place someone under arrest for disorderly conduct?
Not trolling-please reply.
Thanks
Robb
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Jul 27, 2009 - 01:17am PT
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t*r
Hasn't higher education taught you that answering a question with a question is dodging, let alone poor form?
PS: Since you asked, what is the law regarding "drunk in public" in Federal statute?
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 27, 2009 - 01:32am PT
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Imagine if the homeowner had been white, and the policeman black. An interesting thought experiment.
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Robb
Social climber
The Greeley Triangle
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Jul 27, 2009 - 01:44am PT
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I see you "arn't" an english majer.
niht kiddo
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 27, 2009 - 02:04am PT
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Robb, you wont get far by starting out with insults, but I will answer your question.
Yelling happens in tense situations. It sucks, but it is part of the job. I have had jobs where I have been yelled at and because they were customers, I had to take it. I have also had to defuse potential fight situations between gang members. If I reacted to the yelling, I wouldn't have been able to maintain any kind of peace. Sometimes that is just the way it is.
That said, if the person doing the yelling is not cooperating with the investigation, then that can be grounds for arrest.
At least to some extent Gates was cooperating. He showed ID. Once the policeman knew that Gates was in his own house, then no further cooperation was necessary and he should have left.
I think this whole situation could have been handled better by both sides, but I understand how things can get out of control. I don't think it is indicative of racism. I also don't think Gates should have been arrested.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2009 - 02:19am PT
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"That said, if the person doing the yelling is not cooperating with the investigation, then that can be grounds for arrest."
Wrong, this is America. You have absolutely NO legal obligation to "cooperate with an investigation" regardless of whether you are being investigated or someone else is, or whether you are in your home or in a public place.
Watch this video of a checkpoint encounter and learn from a master. Notice how he does not answer any of the officer's questions, but he does not yell at the officer either. He just keeps asking if he is being detained and whether he is free to go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHqpuVetLeo
Even when they push back, he still wins in the end..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDLlEh0x2XA
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Jul 27, 2009 - 02:32am PT
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Gates’ arrest reminds me of Stalinism. A passerby tells the police of a “crime” in progress, the police verify that there was no crime, but arrest one of them anyway after luring him into the public view (outside his own door). Gates may yell all he wants inside his own home, but he better not cause a disturbance outside! I can visualize it now: a curiosity crowd is gathered behind the squad cars, lights are flashing, and terrified neighbors are pulling their curtains, locking their doors and turning off their lights. If it had been a common person, black or white, the incident would have probably ruined the person’s life, as the police would have thrown him in the gulag for a day or two at least, pressed criminal charges, and dragged out his “crime” until he was a broken man. This happens to innocent people every day across our land. I pity whoever is next.
Americans should carefully examine this incident from a basic civil rights standpoint, more than just the racial aspects, which are also obvious.
And t*r, one can stand drunk in one’s own doorway legally in Yosemite, but many of us know that LE there will consider it drunk in public. Similar to dozing after lunch, mid day in the meadow next to the river, and getting a ticket for illegal camping.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 27, 2009 - 02:36am PT
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I don't know the case law, but I think that if an officer is investigating a breaking and entering and you want to claim that you own the home and thus weren't breaking and entering, then you have to prove you are the legal resident in some manner. A valid ID is probably enough.
A possible breaking and entering is grounds to detain someone, and if you don't want to be detained, then you need to cooperate. In the video you showed, the officer had no grounds to detain someone, and thus the person does not have to cooperate. There are also levels of cooperation, such as the search laws in traffic stops. Once stopped you are detained, but depending upon the type of stop, you don't have to allow your vehicle to be searched, yet you do have to provide license, registration and proof of insurance, or you can be arrested.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2009 - 02:43am PT
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"but I think that if an officer is investigating a breaking and entering and you want to claim that you own the home and thus weren't breaking and entering, then you have to prove you are the legal resident in some manner. A valid ID is probably enough."
He not only did not need to show ID, he didn't even have to let the officer into his house. The officer would have needed to get a warrant.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 27, 2009 - 02:48am PT
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I don't think that is true if there is a potential crime in progress. ie reported breaking and entering. Though I am not certain of this.
Are you saying that if a report was made of a shooting in a home, and the officer shows up and everything is quiet, but the neighbors are standing outside swearing that there was a shooting and screaming and it sounded like someone was injured, that the officer would have to wait for a warrant to go into the home if the person who answered the door said no?
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Jul 27, 2009 - 03:11am PT
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Exigent circumstances allow entry into a home without a warrant. The report would qualify, I think.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 27, 2009 - 03:18am PT
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I was thinking about the breaking and entering report also. I think that a police officer could and probably is required to get Id from the person who says it is their home.
Imagine if you broke into someone's home, and the neighbor calls in a possible B and E. The police show up and you answer the door and say it is your home. Are the police just suppose to take your word for it? If they are then you could shut the door and then head out the back. I think they can and should require you to provide some ID.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 27, 2009 - 03:38am PT
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Robb wrote: Pardon me for interrupting your pizzing contest, but here's some food for thought-provided you are the thinking type.
Your questions are so deep and riveting...you just have to explain what a (sic) pizzing contest is.
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klinefelter
Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 27, 2009 - 11:36am PT
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"My most useful tool was the temporary detention."
Tool being the operative word here.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 27, 2009 - 02:26pm PT
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The woman who called the police is disputing the accuracy of the police report.
911 caller in Gates' arrest says she never referred to race
By Wayne Drash
(CNN) -- The woman who made the 911 call that led to the arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. never referred to race when she contacted authorities for what she thought was a potential break-in, her attorney told CNN on Monday.
Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. was arrested after a break-in was reported to police.
Attorney Wendy Murphy also categorically rejected part of the police report that said her client, Lucia Whalen, talked with Sgt. James Crowley, the arresting officer, at the scene.
"Let me be clear: She never had a conversation with Sgt. Crowley at the scene," Murphy said. "And she never said to any police officer or to anybody 'two black men.' She never used the word 'black.' Period."
She added, "I'm not sure what the police explanation will be. Frankly, I don't care. Her only goal is to make it clear she never described them as black. She never saw their race. ... All she reported was behavior, not skin color."
Calls to the Cambridge Police Department about the issue have not been returned. In the police report, filed by Crowley, he says he spoke with Whalen outside the home before he approached Gates' house.
"She went on to tell me that she observed what appeared to be two black males with backpacks on the porch of Ware Street," the report says. "She told me that her suspicions were aroused when she observed one of the men wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry."
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Jul 27, 2009 - 03:36pm PT
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I like Gates. Read some of his stuff and he's able to get ideas
across very well and nails the key points.
A few choice things he wrote about O.J. and race:
"As blacks exulted at Simpson’s acquittal, horrified whites had a fleeting sense that this race thing was knottier than they’d ever supposed-that, when all the pieties were cleared away, blacks really were strangers in their midst."
"cartoon depicts a woman who has taken her errant daughter to see a child psychiatrist. “And when we were watching ‘The Wizard of Oz,’ ” the distraught mother is explaining, “she was rooting for the wicked witch!” What many whites experienced was the bewildering sense that an entire population had been rooting for the wrong side"
"For white observers, what’s even scarier than the idea that black Americans were plumping for the villain, which is a misprision of value, is the idea that black Americans didn’t recognize him as the villain, which is a misprision of fact. How can conversation begin when we disagree about reality? To put it at its harshest, for many whites a sincere belief in Simpson’s innocence looks less like the culture of protest than like the culture of psychosis."
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 27, 2009 - 11:12pm PT
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From CNN: "I don't know what's happening," Whalen said. Several times during the 21/2-minute call, she said she made the call for an older woman who lives in the neighborhood and was worried when she saw two men trying to barge into the house.
Whalen, who works near Gates' home and was on her way to lunch when the incident occurred, spoke about it Monday through her lawyer, Wendy Murphy. According to Murphy, Whalen said officers did not interview her at the scene, she never said the men at the house were black and the only thing she told Crowley was that she was the 911 caller.
Cambridge Police Commissioner Robert Haas did not return calls seeking comment about the discrepancy between the police report and Whalen's account.
From MSNBC: The 911 caller who reported two men possibly breaking into the home of black Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates Jr. did not describe their race, acknowledged they might just be having a hard time with the door and said she saw two suitcases on the porch.
Cambridge police on Monday released the 911 recording and radio transmissions from the scene in an effort to show they had nothing to hide, but the tapes raised new questions about how and why the situation escalated.
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