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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Nov 25, 2009 - 07:51am PT
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Children's Crusade is,as Chiloe points out,just fine the way it is.Although the whole route is rated 5.11 something,originally it was just the first three pitches at 5.9 plus,with only #1 being plus.
I did the first pitch of Tranquility just once,found it very runout at 5.7.I have led the bulge finish once too,and would take my chances on that again before P1,at spicy 10b.
Retrobolting and the whole hard guys put up easy routes carelessly discussion is fine to have.Unfortunately what has happened at Humphery's is that first came the retrobolting,which opened the door to freely bolting a lot of stuff,to where we are now getting sixty foot moderates with five bolts,one cam and a bolt anchor.That in turn is pushing the whole left side into being a sport cliff,well within sight of Cathedral.
Also once people start f*#king with routes,it's....well....a slippery slope.My friend Mel and I put up a 10a years ago,that was probably the best route on a cliff in Pa.It was scary,we did it on the lead,ground up.After a year only one repeat,we felt selfish,so put a bolt at the crux.Later someone removed our lower piton and placed a bolt there,which would have made it go without the bolt above now.Then someone decided to straighten out the start,we went the way we did because we could get more climbing,and get gear.Now it's basically a sport route.Once it starts,you can't get the genie back in the bottle.
Edit to add: There are a great many good routes people just don't bother sussing out.Don't Fire at 10b,Youth Challenge,Bon Temps,Reign of Fire,Revolt of the Dike Brigade,sheesh,people shy away from Turner Flake,with a #4 Camalot that route is totally safe.I've led Lancelot Link more times than I have ever seen anyone else on it.Some routes are just popular.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Nov 25, 2009 - 09:14am PT
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Glad to see I got a discussion started, my main purpose. I agree it is a potentially slippery slope, but especially in a community such as North Conway there are plenty of people who will make sure that things stay in balance. I surely agree that Childrens should remain the way it is--even chickensh#t, professional second "I" have managed to lead it as is. And while I agree that most other routes should remain the same, even if unrepeated, I do think that there could be a few exceptions that would benefit from some additional bolts. The Webster 5.7 route I was thinking about is not Tranquility(a 5.10, of course), but Southern Belle. how many on here have done that one? Ed, in his book, describes it as "a 5.7 for 5.10 leaders", which basically makes my point. 5.10 leaders can't be bothered with a dirty, death 5.7, and 5.7/9 climbers won't get on it. Even though it was one of the first routes on that section of the wall, is the easiest and takes a good line, Jerry Handren completely left it out of his guidebook. Given the limited number of, and great demand for, routes of that difficulty, especially on the South Buttress, it may make sense to resurrect that route with a few additional bolts to make it a realistic proposition for folks climbing in that grade range. The other route I mentioned Airy Aerie is described by Webster as "likely unrepeated" (not true as Long and I did it but at the cost of significant mental trauma!!!!)and only mentioned in passing but not described by Handren, could also benefit from some additional gear--though at least in this case the route has been somewhat superceded by better (and somewhat better protected) routes in the same area of rock, i.e., Harvest, etc. I just feel that a few more "reasonable" routes in that vicinity would be a good "addition" and surely relieve the pressure on routes like Hotter Than Hell. The reason that those routes have appeared on Humphreys is that there is a demand, and personally I think it is a good thing that that long-largely-ignored crag is getting attention at last, and I don't see how this activity is in any way diminishing the trad. adventures at Cathedral and Whitehorse.
Hey "Slabbo"--imagine you and I disagreeing about something--like thats never happened before!!!!! Since when have you been out in Colorado? What have you been up to? Where has someone claimed a new route in the Quarries? Things really HAVE reached a pretty bad state if folks are claiming routes there!!! But I do remember a debate a while back about bolts on Ladder Line--I recall that your stance then was at variance with your current position on bolting. Happy Thanksgiving!!!! Alan
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Nov 25, 2009 - 09:32am PT
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I would have photos from Whitehorse too, but it's hard to let go of the drill/hammer ! Maybe I'll dig a few out.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 25, 2009 - 09:52am PT
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Thet 5.9 arch of inferno is the 1st pitch of Atlantis. It would have been a pretty fun lead except for one nasty loose wet section. Did it once and that was enough.
Alan. it will never happen in NC unless someone with the right street creds does it. All those bolts over on humphreys are tolerated because of who placed them not where or how they were placed.
Its a fairly simple equation actually. If a climb is getting done like Childrens crusade then it is good just the way it is. If a moderate climb say 5.9 and under @ cathedral or WH has not been repeted in 20 years then it is a fair bet that the FA party did botch job of it and it should be cleaned up and fixed.
Of course if 5.11 and 12 + climbers went out and basicly soloed a few of those unrepeted moderates then they could reclaime them for at least the next 20 years but that would be a bit selfish INMOP
So yes if your climb is 5.9 and under at a roadside crag and has not seen an ascent in 20 years you did in fact screw it up so bad that you should feel obligated to go back and fix it INMOP ;)
I did a little experiment with one of my own routs in VT a few years ago. It was a spicy 5.7 that had not been repeted for a full year since the FA. I made Isa lead it one day and she declared it a POS and I was jerk for sending her up it. I then retroed a single bolt to the climb (on lead) and did a 5.8 variation finish. The climb was done at least 6 times in 2 days. Now with the 5.8 variation and that single bolt that climb sees reguler traffic and is regarded by quite a few as their favorite moderate at that area. It still has a fairly spicy start with no fall moves but the climb now aparenty has just enough gear in the right places to become populer.
Annother time I free soloed a 5.6 and then went back and rope solo bolted it. new leaders now have their fun and i can still free solo it whenever I choose. It really is not rocket science. Its called being nice and considerate of other folks needs ;)
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 25, 2009 - 10:02am PT
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quote Hah, there goes that slippery slope! In my view the lower pitches of Children's
Crusade are prime examples of things that should not be retrobolted, they're
brilliant just as they are. end quote.
Precisly. With my simple rule this is completly covered. 20 years without an ascent and its time for the cleaning and fixing crew. If its getting climbed then it does not need cleaning or fixing.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Nov 25, 2009 - 10:11am PT
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I dunno.. I never really consider other people's need when doing an f/a. Sure that may be selfish and egotistical, but that is what climbing in general and especially f/a's is/can be about.
As long as the bolts are good and belays solid then people can do or not do a route.
Paul Ross says :" people give you a hard time about f/a's just wish they had done it first"
john
Haven't we had this chat before ?
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tradchick
Trad climber
White Mountains
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Nov 25, 2009 - 10:12am PT
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 25, 2009 - 10:23am PT
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Slabbo, being selfish and egotisticle is a choice.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Nov 25, 2009 - 10:23am PT
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They are on the far side of the south buttress, just right of Children's Crusade, above Seventh Seal, etc.
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tradchick
Trad climber
White Mountains
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Nov 25, 2009 - 10:26am PT
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Thanks! Both of the climbs are the middle section of the cliff, between the slabs and the Wonder Wall.
Loose Lips starts at the top of the Ethereal Buttress (climb Seventh Seal or Ethereal, then link up with Loose Lips). It's a face climb at the beginning and then turns into a perfect diagonal finger crack.
Total Recall is left of Loose Lips in the Childrens Crusade area. Hard face and I've only done the first pitch. It's a 10 or 11, can't remember.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Nov 25, 2009 - 10:42am PT
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Selfish ? Maybe,but are you REALLY thinking about other people when doing a ground up onsight f/a ?? I don't ever recall thinking this way,maybe after, but not while actually climbing.
example on Whitehorse- Was Willie Crowther being selfish on the f/a of Sliding board 'cause he did horrendous run-outs ? I doubt it. He was not thinking about later ascenders,he was thinking about climbing to the top and surviving ( I did ask him).
Did Alain Comeau get Egotistical doing Children's ? No, he of course could have placed more bolts and maybe should have ? He was thinking about climbing to the top and that was it.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2009 - 10:43am PT
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With whatever authority I might have as the OP, I hereby declare bolt discussions and TR
photos are equally welcome on this thread!
I hear there was a significant rockfall in the Ethereal area recently, perhaps Sunday night.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Nov 25, 2009 - 10:55am PT
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Ya , the rockfall came from the halfway ledge between Aiwass and upper Children's. May have hit Revolt, Looselips, etc. There is a decent size talus under Ethereal so.....
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Nov 25, 2009 - 11:01am PT
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Wow, hope that Loose Lips didn't sustain a direct hit, that traverse crack/flake has always had a bit of a "temporary" appearance!!!!
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Nov 25, 2009 - 11:06am PT
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Al, check your mail, I just pm'd you
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Jim E
climber
away
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Nov 25, 2009 - 11:34am PT
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Chiloe, Is that locker an attempt to better ensure the retention of the hanger when that stud snaps off? Don't want that little relic to die a lonely death in the woods at the base?
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Mojomonkey
climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Nov 25, 2009 - 11:34am PT
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Photos of the rock fall were posted here
From that link (jaablink on rc.com):
Not 100%, but I am pretty sure the block came from mid corners, about 4 th pitch around Childrens crusade direct. Looks like loose lips was hit by a large chunk too around p2. I was checking the area out with some binoculars but cant find the exact point of start. I can only make a logical guess. Judging a large pile of fresh debris on the third pitch ledge , the block came from the roof above, then shattered on the ledge below sending granite chunks down to the ground scaring the rock and making some new holds on their way. Some small rocks came down while I was there today, and the area should probably be avoided at least untill the ice cleans it off some for us. EMR is aware and the event will be brought up at the meeting tonight.
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meclimber
Trad climber
Dover, NH
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Nov 25, 2009 - 11:37am PT
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Alot of these routes metioned do get done, even with the pro as it is. As part of the younger generation i know that the crew of guys i climb with and around are getting up on these classic if neglected routes. Castaways, don't fire, youth challenge, and revolt all get done pretty regularly. Harvest,childrens crusade, eliminate direct, wonderwall, science friction wall all see traffic. I know recently me and a few other people have been talking about replacing some relics to try to improve the quality of the experience. We recently did the wonderwall and the fifth pitch as a horror show (we did the harvest-wonderwall variation) and it was 20 feet between 1/4" bolts with nasty hangers. The climbing was great, but the pro was terrible. I can deal with the runouts but not with no end in sight.
On cathedral there has been a slew of recent activity above the bonfire ledge, both in new routing and spring cleaning on the existing lines. All done in good style. I even sometimes look at some of slabbo's routes and what to take a wack at them. (the climb to the right of orcs, the flake by inferno, among others)
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cowpoke
climber
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Nov 25, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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Regarding Children's Crusade: I think the bolt on the last pitch that is pictured in Chiloe's last post (a pic I took while he was leading precarious ground - ha!) makes the 10+ slab move not far above the pro more "interesting" than the mantle on the first pitch. On the latter, the bolts are further below your feet...but they are big, shiny, and sunk to the hilt.
Regarding the more general bolting in the N Conway area topic: with only a few exceptions, the bolting status quo seems just about right for me, not too spicy and not too bland. The bolting debates, per se, in this region have generally worked as a fairly efficient mechanism that have, in the end, usually left the needle in my comfort zone (i.e., not too many bolts and not too few).
As someone who has fearfully backed off many a route that others would consider very well protected -- some of these I've even led before (Chiloe witnessed my last embarrassing incident not too long ago) -- my favorite climbs in the region and elsewhere all had some bit of spice involved. The first pitch of Children's Crusade is a case in point: first time on the route, I up-n-down climbed the mantle entry move several times until the sun slipped behind the clouds (psychologically adding traction to my sweaty hands and not-so-sticky-feeling-shoes).
It is the spicy routes (several never to be done) that I daydream about. They keep me coming back for more embarrassment, time and time again. The very well protected routes, even the really fun ones, have always felt a bit like training for the real deal. That said, I've never met a bolt I didn't clip!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 25, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
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Slabbo, Slideing board and CC get done just about every day when the weather is good. Those are not the kind of routs that I am talking about. If it gets climbed that much then those guys must have done a stand up good job of putting those routs in. One of my favorite slab climbs is Screaming Meanie on Rojers rock. mandatory 90ft runout on the 3rd pitch. Recently a longtime local put a horrible bolted squeeze job in there that totaly screws up the experience. You simply can not climb the first pitch without being sucked into clipping the bolts of the squeeze job.....
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