Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 08:11am PT
|
"I don't think that is a rejection of memos, but of Cheney.
However, I also think Cheney, like most liars has next to zero credibility."
great, dirt, so here's your chance to completely humiliate cheney; let's call his bluff and pressure barry to declassify ALL the memos concerning torture...either, YOU will be proven correct and the memos will reveal that we acquired no valuable info from the interrogations or not enough to justify the techniques...or, you will be proven incorrect in your claims that we received no useful information from the techniques BUT this will give you the opportunity to demonstrate your courage by declaring that even though the techniques were useful for stopping terrorist attacks that would have resulted in hundreds or even thousands of deaths you still believe that we should not use these techniques in the future even if the terrorist threat reaches a level even you think is serious, even if you think an attack is imminent, even if your own family is at risk
yes, W had 8 months to stop the attack, which clearly wasn't even in the planning stages until he was elected...good to know, norton, that you support the electoral college
"Didn't they torture KSM's children - I think they were 8 or 9 at the time"
dr. f, looks like you found a kindred spirit
"Your postings are all over the board"
so, ignore me, apogee
"the idea of Hannity interviewing Cheney being "proof" of anything is just hilarious"
pay attention, high, i never said hannity or cheney are proof; i simply asked that memos that cheney claims will vindicate the interrogation techniques be declassified...those memos will be proof
and what harm is there in releasing the memos? barry has already indicated to the terrorists...oops, i mean man-caused disasters causers the limits of our interrogations
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 08:32am PT
|
Morning,
You damn right I support the law of the land, and in the case of Presidential elections, it is the Electoral College final count that determines who wins.
Yes bookworm, I do support the US Constitution and its laws.
Christ, that ALL you got? Some kine of "put down" on me because Obama blew McCain away in an Electoral landslide?
What is your point? Would you like to have only the majority popular vote decide?
Guess what? McCain still loses.
And when you vote for Caribou Barbie for President in four years, she will lose much worse than McCain did to bony fingers.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 09:28am PT
|
"ther, YOU will be proven correct and the memos will reveal that we acquired no valuable info from the interrogations or not enough to justify the techniques...or, you will be proven incorrect in your claims that we received no useful information from the techniques"
I didn't say any such thing. I've said that while there might be some valuable info gathered there is also quite a bit of crap gathered too.
But only countries willing to ditch their principles and respect for human rights when the going gets tough engage in torture. (And in this case, the going wasn't actually that tough: Bush told us to go shopping.) It's disgraceful that we did it. The whole bunch of them are monsters.
But Bookworm doesn't care that we join the ranks of Burma, China, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. and other countries that use cruelty.
I guess that bookworm also doesn't care that any evidence obtained through torture is inadmissible.
That sick little era is coming to a close.
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 09:50am PT
|
"You damn right I support the law of the land, and in the case of Presidential elections, it is the Electoral College final count that determines who wins"
great, norton, i'm happy to meet one lib who "supports" W's election in 2000
"But only countries willing to ditch their principles and respect for human rights when the going gets tough engage in torture...The whole bunch of them are monsters"
from a previous post in which is shared dennis blair's explanation for defending the interrogation techniques...blair is obama's director of national intelligence...he works for obama...he speaks for obama
in the months after 9/11, Blair claims, "we did not have a clear understanding of the enemy we were dealing with, and our every effort was focused on preventing further attacks that would kill more Americans. It was during these months that the CIA was struggling to obtain critical information from captured al Qaida leaders, and requested permission to use harsher interrogation methods. The OLC memos make clear that senior legal officials judged the harsher methods to be legal..."
Blair continues: "Those methods, read on a bright, sunny, safe day in April 2009, appear graphic and disturbing. As the President has made clear, and as both CIA Director Panetta and I have stated, we will not use those techniques in the future. But we will absolutely defend those who relied on these memos and those guidelines."
ergo, in a "bright, sunny, safe" world, such techniques "APPEAR graphic and disturbing"...ergo, on a dark, dangerous day (i.e. after watching 3000 innocent people murdered on american soil by crazed terrorists) those techniques wouldn't seem so graphic or disturbing
so, dirt, will you add, obama, panetta, and blair to your list of "monsters"?
"I guess that bookworm also doesn't care that any evidence obtained through torture is inadmissible"
ummm...you're confusing terrorist interrogations with criminal investigations...even, barry has decided that our guests in gitmo do not deserve the same civil rights as american citizens...monstrous!
"That sick little era is coming to a close"
oh, really...rendition continues, "domestic surveillance" continues, gitmo continues...of course, you might be right...the era of the global war on terror might be coming to a close as barry's dhs secretary starts focusing on vets and pro-life activists as potential terrorist threats...perhaps you'll be happier if our own civilians undergo the same treatment as terrorists...oops, i mean man-caused disaster causers
|
|
UncleDoug
climber
No. Lake Tahoe, CA
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 10:59am PT
|
Well if Bookworm "disappears" we'll know what is happening to him.....
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 11:37am PT
|
so, dirt, will you add, obama, panetta, and blair to your list of "monsters"?
"I guess that bookworm also doesn't care that any evidence obtained through torture is inadmissible"
ummm...you're confusing terrorist interrogations with criminal investigations...even, barry has decided that our guests in gitmo do not deserve the same civil rights as american citizens...monstrous!
No, I'm not confusing things. The detainees are going to be tried in some kind of court where evidence will have to be admissible according to some kind of standard. Evidence obtained through torture is going to work.
If Obama continues to do such things, then yes he would be monster.
"That sick little era is coming to a close"
oh, really...rendition continues, "domestic surveillance" continues, gitmo continues...of course, you might be right...the era of the global war on terror might be coming to a close as barry's dhs secretary starts focusing on vets and pro-life activists as potential terrorist threats...perhaps you'll be happier if our own civilians undergo the same treatment as terrorists...oops, i mean man-caused disaster causers "
Hmmmmmm...Gitmo is winding down...The doemstic surveillance that has ensnared a congresswoman likely occured during Bush's term.
I don't expect all these programs to disappear overnight: he's been in office 3 months now, and things don't change instantly. It's funny how conservatives were ready to proclaim him a failure after about 12 minutes in office for not accomplishing everything he said he would accomplish.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 12:46pm PT
|
First, it's not from WAPO. It's a guest column written by someone who is not exactly an objective observer:
"The writer, a visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution, served in senior positions in the Pentagon and the White House from 2001 to 2009, most recently as chief speechwriter for President George W. Bush."
Second, I find his characterization of torture as "enhanced interrogation techniques" to be quite dishonest.
Third, all the talk about losing an American city is pure hype.
|
|
bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 12:58pm PT
|
"hype"...right, never prepare for the worst-case scenario...big deal that noko has nukes and is close to developing a rocket that will reach america...big deal that iran is close to getting nukes and is quite cuddly with noko...big deal that pakistan has nukes and a government that is teetering on collapse while extremists are free to live, recruit, and train in a wide region of the country
as dennis blair (barry's director of national intelligence) implied, this april 2009 the world is a "safe, sunny" time
dirt, do you deny the writer's claims about what the memos reveal? if so, don't you want ALL memos declassified? that way, maybe you will find real evidence of W's "war crimes"
oh well, nothing to worry about when barry's dhs secretary doesn't even know ILLEGAL immigration is a crime:
"And yes, when we find illegal workers, yes, appropriate action, some of which is criminal, most of that is civil, because crossing the border is not a crime per se. It is civil."
here's the penal code (which applies to criminal activity, NOT civil activity):
http://trac.syr.edu/laws/08/08USC01325.html
having a tax-cheat in charge of treasury doesn't seem so bad, now
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 01:05pm PT
|
"from wapo, that right-wing rag "
Bookworm you seem to miss the point of the Post's op-ed page, which is to give voice to a range of voices. Conservatives demonize the Post because more often than not those voices strongly disagree with conservative political views. Just because the Post is enlightened enough to want to include many viewpoints doesn't mean that this one particular column shows that they, as an institution, agree with your particular stance. In fact, I'm sure we could go through the past years of columns and official opinions since Abu Ghraib and find that they argue against torture pretty loudly and clearly.
As to your argument that in this case "torture worked," it may have it may have not I do not know. Torture WILL indeed sometimes turn up useful information. The argument against torture is not that "it never produces useful information ever ever ever" it is that it does more harm than good. There are volumes of interviews and books written by FBI agents complaining that they would develop a relationship with a detainee and then the CIA would come in and torture them and all the useful information they were getting would dry up because of the abuse and loss of trust.
Furthermore, as easily can be seen by the reaction of our torturing to others abroad friend and foe alike, our use of torture is very easily used as a propaganda tool to aid our enemies and destroy our credibility. America is an idea just as much as it's a country, and one of our great strengths since WWII is that people typically saw us as the Great Good in contrast to many other's Great Evil. People such as yourself essentially argue that we should stoop to whatever means necessary to save as many lives as possible. The ultimate goal of saving lives is a noble one, but when we take a "by whatever means" attitude we began chipping away at the very foundation of what gives our country strength to begin with.
tl:dr If you want your country to be seen as the ultimate good, you can't do evil things and then be surprised when the world thinks you're evil. If we can't accomplish our while retaining the very ideals and integrity that make us America to begin with, then we simply aren't America anymore.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 01:10pm PT
|
""hype"...right, never prepare for the worst-case scenario...big deal that noko has nukes and is close to developing a rocket that will reach america...big deal that iran is close to getting nukes and is quite cuddly with noko...big deal that pakistan has nukes and a government that is teetering on collapse while extremists are free to live, recruit, and train in a wide region of the country "
Nice rant, but what does that have to do with torturing Al Qaeda members? There is no evidence that Al Qaeda (or Iraq, for that matter) could've done that. Hype indeed.
And I never said "big deal" with respect to North Korea, Pakistan or Iran.
But, now you're just ranting about everything. Easy, you have at least 3 1/2 more years to be angry: pace yourself or your mouth will run out of foam.
|
|
HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 01:33pm PT
|
"Everybody claims they're getting "useful" information, the real question is is it high quality immediately actionable information. "
No it isn't. This kind of short-term thinking is exactly why we are still fighting in both Iraq and Afghanistan. This issue wasn't made overnight and we can't expect to fix it overnight. I can only assume that you bring up "immediately actionable" because this is the only real argument for torture...the Jack Bauer scenario. A bomb is ticking and DAMMIT WE NEED THE LOCATION NOW! This is a fictional construct that I doubt has ever actually happened in real life, and even if it has does not apply to 99.9% of the interrogations that we do. We need intelligence officers who are willing to make long term investments in intelligence capital that allow us as a country to make long term strategies.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
|
Just remember regarding torture, if it's OK for us to do, it's Ok for any other country to use.
Nearly Every Country that would consider torture is at least as under threat as the US is.
Maybe you want to go there, I don't.
Peace
Karl
|
|
Bill
climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
|
"again, i ask...if you declare you would not use these techniques even if they work (which even the wapo shows they did work), then which american city would you choose to sacrifice to the terrorists? "
Falls Church, VA.
False dilemma, BTW.
|
|
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Apr 21, 2009 - 10:34pm PT
|
Again: Here's why you just don't get it.
You can get elected only in bible belt red moron states.
Deal with it.
Americans More Optimistic; Still Hate GOP
The latest New York Times poll is loaded with good news for the Obama administration and news that would be devastating for the GOP if it were ever able to penetrate the conservative-media echo chamber. While the public is still pretty pessimistic about the future, it's considerably less so than it was before Barack Obama took office. Thirty-nine percent of respondents in the Times poll think the country is going in the right direction and 53 percent say the wrong direction, a substantial improvement from January, when the numbers were 15 and 79, respectively. Similarly, 20 percent of those polled think the economy is getting better and 34 percent worse, versus 7 and 54 in January.
But it's the political numbers that are truly striking. Obama has a 66 percent approval rating, which is the highest this poll has recorded, while the GOP's favorability is at 31 percent, the lowest the poll has recorded in 25 years of asking the question. Arguably more remarkable still is that, asked whether Obama or the GOP Congress would be more likely to make "the right decisions about the nation's economy," respondents broke for Obama 63 percent to 20 percent. That means that even within the 31 percent rump that holds a positive view of the GOP, at least a third trust Obama's instincts on the economy equally or more. And why shouldn't they? Despite Rush Limbaugh's best efforts just 2 percent of respondents blame Obama for the state of the economy, compared to 33 percent who blame George W. Bush. (Wall Street and Congress come in for 21 and 11 percent, respectively.)
The Democratic Party, while not as popular as its leader, is still pretty popular, with 56 percent favorability. Moreover, 19 percent fewer respondents think the Democrats are too heavily influenced by "big business" than feel the Republicans are, and the Dems have a massive 35-point edge on the question of "which party is more concerned with the needs and problems of people like yourself." The poll also gives the Dems a 16-point edge in respondent self-identification, up from 10 points in February, and just a tick off the inaugural high of 18 points. (Without sifting through the figures too obsessively, this looks like the largest edge since 1992.)
There's more along these lines on taxes (74 percent of respondents think raising them on those earning over $250K is a "good idea"), health care (57 percent say they're willing to pay higher taxes themselves for universal coverage), foreign policy, and the like. The usual caveats all apply, of course--it's just one poll (though others seem to generally conform), public sentiment is volatile, etc., etc. Still, I encourage anyone interested to give the whole poll a look.
--Christopher Orr
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2009 - 12:11am PT
|
I guess you aren't counting the Thousands of American Soldiers and Contractors that have died since 2001 Skip.
From the link you posted
Admiral Blair states
""The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."
"valuable information" is pretty vague. The bush team trumpeted the new everything time they thought they spoiled a boy scout panty raid on a sorority but when we got the details later it was usually a bunch of losers who didn't have money, guns, nor real intent
Peace
Karl
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2009 - 01:24am PT
|
FLASH....NEWS UPDATE....REPUBLICANTS STILL WRONG ON EVERYTHING
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Apr 22, 2009 - 02:26am PT
|
Torture in these instances produced a big fat nothing.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090422/pl_mcclatchy/3217245
"While we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between al Qaida and Iraq and we were not successful in establishing a link between al Qaida and Iraq ," Burney told staff of the Army Inspector General. "The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish that link . . . there was more and more pressure [from Cheney and Rumsfeld's people] to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results."
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!