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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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I'm not. I'm using the word with respect to 'responsibility' and 'burden' (which everyone who us who ties into to a rope owns), not 'blame'. You either aren't reading my posts or are not grasping the difference between specific, technical causality and 'blame' or 'judgment'. Accidents in climbing and other endeavors have specific causality chains described by facts of the incident. There need be no judgment whatsoever around them - facts are facts - again, there is no more good served ignoring those facts then in attempting to assign blame to them - both are simply futile and pointless efforts.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Healje: "You either aren't reading my posts or are not grasping the difference between specific, technical causality and 'blame' or 'judgment'.
I have read your posts and I can even quote them. You are either being dishonest, or you can not comprehend what you wrote in your own post.
Healje, you wrote, "From what I can tell the onus was on Al, regardless of any interruptions by Woody, to insure he was setup safely at the anchor whether for just being there, bringing up Wendell, or lowering Woody. I would suspect distraction was more or less the sole culprit here and that attitudes, histories, and the interactions of personalities were very minor contributing factors at best."
"Accidents in climbing and other endeavors have specific causality chains described by facts of the incident. There need be no judgment whatsoever around them - facts are facts - again, there is no more good served ignoring those facts then in attempting to assign blame to them - both are simply futile and pointless efforts."
You appear to be unclear as to the difference between a fact and a value judgment. "Old school sensibilities" and prejudices are not facts.
Also, you are not basing your value judgment on facts but speculation. I can speculate scenarios which place the "onus" on either one, but it's just speculation. Please don't pretend you're basing it on any "official technical analysis."
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Healje: " In this or any other case, and regardless of presence or absence of any safety checks, each and every one of us is 'responsible' for securing ourselves to an anchor at the top of a pitch and checking to insure that we accomplished that as well. That's a 'fact' and not a matter of 'blame' or a 'judgment' call."
If you think that is a "fact" and not a "judgment call" than you don't understand what a fact is. You don't understand what a judgment call is either. Your statement as to who is responsible for tying in is a judgment call, not a fact.
"I for one still cringe when someone wants to check my business or have me check theirs - I rope-solo for half of all my free climbing and do double check all my business and it also just grates against all of my old school sensibilities and notions of what climbing is 'all about' relative to self-reliance."
I keep coming back to this because it demonstrates, to me, a lack of understanding of the social and technical dynamics of team (non-solo) climbing. But with this background, I can understand why you jumped to the conclusions you did about the accident.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It's a different approach to understanding from my perspective. I have no judgment or blame around why Al ended up not being anchored and it likely could just as easily been me under the same circumstances. That Al did end up unanchored is, however, a fact related by folks who were there, not any speculation on my part.
You are right that, underpinning everything I say is the primary and unwaivering tenant of my 'old school' worldview of climbing that responsibility begins - but doesn't necessarily end with - the individual in all cases, in all circumstances, and from the moment you leave your car until the moment you return to it. I find any notion of group or 'team' responsibility somehow surplanting individual responsibility under any circumstance deeply disturbing in the extreme. Group or 'team' responsibility can certainly complement individual responsibility, but it cannot and should never replace it. The concept of individual responsibility and you being ultimately responsible for your life is the very heart and soul of 'safety' in my worldview, in and out of climbing. But again, and the problem I think you're having with that, is you are coupling blame to responsibility - from my perspective that is utterly pointless in dealing with an accident or it's aftermath.
An infrequent part of my business is technology-related disaster recovery - tens of millions of dollars per day and lives can be at stake when I get a call of that type. Backward-looking responsibility ascription (blame) is both entirely irrelevant and counterproductive in such circumstances; understanding the facts and causality chain, or what is sometimes called forward-looking responsibility ascription is, on the other hand, essential to ending a disaster and to the process of restoring services. The same sort of approach or mindset is used in sorting out complex, large-scale outages of power grids, fires, oil spills, aviation accidents, etc.
Ascribing moral accountability or blame is a behavioral default in our society, and I understand it is difficult for most people to seperate notions of responsibility from those of moral 'accountability' and 'blame'. That it's hard for the average person to accept the idea and paradox of someone being responsible yet not at fault or to blame. However, understanding the roles involved with accidents, the scope of responsibility associated with those roles, and the options available to each to exercise those responsibilities are at the heart of both accident analysis and disaster recovery. In climbing, anchoring is more strongly associated with, and ascribed to, the role of belayer rather than any climbing or lowered role because those roles are quickly dislocated from the anchor and any possibility of exercising responsibility over it.
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BillL
Trad climber
NM
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Does anyone know/recall which route they climbed? Locker? Wendell?
Bill
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Couchmaster, I really appreciate your description of how my friend Deb died so many years ago. Some of the information you shared is news to me. I also say belatedly, thank you for being there. I know there was nothing you could have done for her. It sounds like they were in very capable hands with you being a first responder. No need for the graphic details, but I'll say it must have been very difficult for you guys to climb that pitch with Deb and the other guy hanging next to you.
23 years ago I was fairly new to climbing. Deb was my first close friend that died in a climbing accident, and I remember feeling crushed by sadness, and for a period of time I felt direction-less in life; feelings that are common when one loses a friend or loved one. (I know because I cannot count on one hand how many friends I have lost to climbing.) There were others closer to her than I, but nonetheless it really hit me hard.
As much as I wish it otherwise, this is a part of our passion. I was recently involved in a very serious accident, in which I was the first and only responder. No death, but a serious injury to a person that is not only a friend, but someone that has inspired my climbing. I've been thinking a lot about things such as use of a helmet, various risks of different types of climbing, communication while climbing, parenthood. . . All the various posts about Woody, a man I never met causes more thoughts. I'm afraid I haven't come up with too many answers.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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My condolences Locker - must be tough all the way around. I'm making my thread exit here as well...
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Double checks don't share the responsibilty, it means each partner is being responsible for their own safety, not just depending on the other partner's checks.
If Al fell by himself that would be his responsiblity. Once Woody was put on belay both of their lives were on the line, both had responsibility to check the system.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The lesson= Don't ask, don't tell, don't think......
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the Fet
Supercaliyosemistic climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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No stzzo, just a general comment.
I don't agree with the idea that doublechecks lead to some "communal responsibility" and leads people to be less safe because they feel someone else is also checking. It just doesn't jive with my experience and statistics.
That's like people who say "I don't wear my seatbelt because I heard about a guy who was thrown free from a car and would have died if he stayed in it." Yeah and for every one time that happens there are thousands of people who lived because they had their seatbelts on.
For every time somone let down their guard and didn't check because they thought their partner had checked things out and it led to a problem, there are probably thousands of times where a double check revealed a problem that was fixed and saved someone's ass.
There have been too many deaths and accidents that could have been prevented by double checks for me to be silent on this issue.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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fet i agree-
it's just as shared a responsibility as if the climber had begun to untie, stopped halfway for some unknown reason, forgot about it, and then decided to be lowered off, weighted the rope, and fallen to his death.
certainly that climber would have had some responsibility, but the responsibility, IMO, would be shared by his partner, if he'd failed to check his partner's knottttttt...
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couchmaster
climber
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Author:
wbw said: "Couchmaster, I really appreciate your description of how my friend Deb died so many years ago. Some of the information you shared is news to me. I also say belatedly, thank you for being there."
You're welcome. The part remaining in my mind all these years is that I did my best and it still wasn't enough and could never be enough. I don't beat myself up, but it sticks in my craw. I did have an opportunity to redeem myself years later when one of the most experienced climbers in our area nearly died while slipping on a down climb to come visit and hang out, and it pleases me to no end to hear him tell other people that Bob and I saved his life as I believe it's the truth. Its not often you can really make a difference, and it feels damn good when you do. It was my daughters first day ever climbing real cliffs she must have been 10 or 11 then. Somehow the shock, blood, broken bones and chaos disturbed her and she never climbed again.
I don't think this stuff ever truly goes away. Just a few days ago, last Sunday, my buddy called me (I answered on a ledge while climbing) and said he and his girlfriend were at another climbing area were coming over to climb after lunch with me - they never showed up. I got home, saw the news a man and a woman died climbing right where they were and was like "NO WAY". I was relieved when a check of my phone showed a text message that they had been the first responders and had tried their very best to help. Lots of other folks were there trying to assist as well. Their lack of success is equally difficult for some of them.
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/families_friends_will_miss_fal.html The lil kids, aged 5 and 7 were standing there watching their daddy slowly die right in front of their eyes. Damn, damn sad.
wbw said: I'm afraid I haven't come up with too many answers.
I have about that many as well WBW. I guess just love deeply, life rich full lives, and enjoy our lives while we have them is maybe it. Live well and rejoice that you can keep her memory alive and got to spend time with what must have been a remarkable person as you describe her. To those who loved Woody, time will never, ever erase their good thoughts of the guy. I wish you all the best in this painful time.
__
Richard in Bend: as posted above "BTW, I was thinking this earlier but it needs to be said: big props, no HUGE ONES to Matt for his fast response and right choices on this one. I told him that it was a perfect thing in a bad situation, where you have a kick-assed climber who can just flash up and can get you down fast, and there on the ground is a doctor waiting to help you on the next critical step. If either one was not there......Al might not be here with us either. Shock can be sudden and it's real. Props to the Dr and all who helped or tried to assist.
Matt climbed up, lowered down to Al, clipped Al off onto his harness, cut Al's trail line and then quickly lowered down to a waiting physician.
Regards to all
Bill
ps, for the record: when I go, I want a huge wake, where every climber or buddy who ever tied in or knew me shows up to drink, grab a microphone and talk sh#t about me. In between this raucous bullsh#t, my family is auctioning off my gear stash to people who need and want it. Select friends can choose a piece for free before the auction to carry a memory. I want tears, laughter, crying, hugs and memories to flow. And when it's over, it's done and over and folks go life full, deep and happy lives. (this is my thing, not giving any advice here)
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kwok
Trad climber
Claremont, CA
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I have been silent because I am still processing what happened. Moreover, Wendell told me and Tia that he would write up a report and post it. The following may fill in some details about what happened the fifteen minutes before the accident: it’s a slightly edited version of the “accident report” that I emailed Dan Messaros, Lost Horse Ranger district (NPS), on Mar 24, 9 days after the accident. (I replaced “the green-blue rope” and the “gray-red” ropes in the original report with “rope #1” and “rope #2)
Just to preface the report: I have also been silent because many of you here know Woody far better than I did: I had climbed with Woody for about 12 – 15 times: the first few times were with Woody and Blake (or others) in the ’03 to ’05 seasons, and more recently with Woody and Wendell (and Liz Ying and Tom Martin). I will post my tribute to Woody, something I did not mention at the Memorial Service, on the “Woody appreciation thread..” But this is what I sent Dan Messaros, (I apologize if it’s too terse, I was just trying to give Dan the “essentials”)
The sequence of events as I remembered:
(1) Woody lead Desperado (10a) on rope #l.
(2) I followed, trailing rope #2 for Wendell to climb. I tied a figure-8 on a bight near one end of rope #2 and clipped it with a locking ‘biner to the haul loop at the back of my BD harness (probably a Momentum)
(3) I cleaned Woody’s gear as I followed. However, there was one piece I couldn’t get out. So, I back-clipped rope #2 to it.
(4) I got to the top. I did not see how Woody was anchored in. Woody was dehydrated and wanted me to lower him ASAP. I cannot remember when I untied myself from rope #1; I might have done so as soon as I got to the top since the area of the top was pretty large and it was pretty flat. But I am sure that I untied myself from it at some point.
(5) Woody had placed two camalots in a horizontal crack at the top. (But I don’t remember anything clipped off of these two cams.) He told me to add a third piece using the gear I had cleaned. I did so, and it took me 2 -3 minutes to finalize on a placement I was completely happy with. I knew Woody wasn’t too pleased with how long it took me. Regardless, I equalized the three camalots with a green cordelette and with either a figure-eight or an overhand knot. I then clipped myself off to the equalized anchor with a sling that was girth-hitched to my harness via a locking ‘biner: this is a habit (clipping off via a sling) I developed from my sport-climbing days.
(6) Woody was busy doing something when I was fixing the anchor but I wasn’t paying attention to what he was doing. Shortly after I clipped myself into the anchor above, Woody handed me a bight (Fig-8 or overhand) or a clove-hitch that was tied/hitched on rope #2 and said something. I do not remember if he said, “Tie in” or “Clip in” or “Clip this in.” All I remember was that the following went through my head, “Woody is the quintessential trad climber and all ‘old-fashioned’ trad-climbers like to clip into the anchor via the rope because it can absorb more shock than a sling,” i.e. I interpreted that bight/hitch Woody gave me as something he wanted me to tie into the anchor with. So, I clipped this bight/hitch into the locking ‘biner I used towards the end of step (5) and removed the sling (girth-hitched to my harness) from that locking ‘biner.
(7) At this point, I thought Woody was ready to be lowered (since he has already tied himself into rope #1). So, I started to put rope #1 through my belay device (a Petzl Reverso) that I was going to lower Woody with. However, Woody wanted me to hand back all the gear I cleaned. I did so. I then proceeded to lower Woody. I remember saying, “Woody I am going to lower you very slowly as if you were down-climbing,” and Woody answered, chuckling, “Not that slow.”
(8) Regardless, I lowered Woody slowly because I want to make sure I was in control. I HATE lowering people because I only weigh 125 pounds. Anyway, the first 5 to 8 feet (when Woody was still on relatively flat ground) went OK. Then I remember being tugged very hard by Woody as I lowered him further: I pressed down with one foot (to prevent myself from being pulled further) and held very hard with my right (brake) hand to stop him from moving.
(9) Next, I remember being airborne and screaming. I remember seeing another body in the air with me and my glasses flying off me.
What happened (/what Wendell Smith and I figured out:)
(i) I was not really clipped off to the anchor. When Woody was “busy doing something” in step (6) above, he was puling all the slack (70 ft or so) on rope #2 (the trail rope) and asked Wendell to tie in.
(ii) Wendell had climbed more with Woody and knows that Woody didn’t use clove-hitches. So, when Woody handed me that bight, he might have just given it to me to clip to myself somewhere so that the trailing rope wouldn’t be flying/dangling around …
* * * *
My postlude to the report:
In point (8) above, it was probably the first 10 – 20 ft (when it was still relatively flat) that the lowering went OK.
As Wendell mentioned in his report: I have forgotten most of the details about what happened immediately after I stopped falling. However, I have very bad eyesight (-8.0 Diopter, both eyes) I remember that the rope(#2)/harness was sort of pulling me away from the rock, and I was trying desperately to move (with difficulty) towards the rock. Once I finally got to the rock, I remember trying desperately to move further to the right to sink a hand jam into a crack: I remember I was freaking out because I don’t know if it was just some horn that caught the rope I was falling on …
Matt, THANK YOU for getting me down.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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[Edit:] Thank you, Al.
(I was posting at the same time):
Bill,
About the (1986) Trezlar accident, could you tell me more about how the ropes were threaded? You stated one of their ropes was threaded through a rappel anchor 10' to the west, and the end of one rope was clove hitched to a cam. Let's call that rope hitched to the cam the second rope, and the guy was tied into the end of the first rope. The ropes were also tied together. Does this mean at the end of the fall, the climbers ended up weighting both the rappel anchor and the cam? And was the distance from the guy to the rappel anchor the length of the combined 2 ropes, minus the 10' over to the cam?
It makes me wonder what the cam was for, if only the end of one rope was clipped to it. It sounds like it was meant to be a directional, but Deb either didn't clip it, or became detached from it.
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couchmaster
climber
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Thanks Al.
Sure clint, I'll hand draw something right now.
OK, at times like these, I wish I could draw. It's been a long time, but here it is I think. The two ropes were joined as if they were gong to rap, their was a friend directly behind their stance near the top of the crack where the rack and shoes remained, but it had been cloved short to the anchor, but not clipped into.
The knot by the 2 x's is to show the two ropes joined together. The other rope wasn't hanging but was stacked on the ledge and not tossed yet.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Al, thanks for posting that. We are incredibly lucky and fortunate to still have you in the fold - nothing whatsoever wrong with taking whatever time you need to either process, or more important, recover as fully and best you can.
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couchmaster
climber
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Same here Al, glad you are with us still.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Ohh man that sucks so bad... You basicly had it rigged the way you wanted it and and you thought your partner wanted you to chang it so you did and it was just a missunderstanding and it sucks and its not your fault. That really could happen to any one. So sorry for all that happened....
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Thanks for the drawing, Bill - now I understand the (1986) Trezlar description fully.
Even if they were short on slings, Deb could have clipped a knot in the rope between the cam and the rappel anchor, and anchored the rope to the rappel anchor as well. If there was not enough slack then the clove could have been moved....
I suppose since the cam was poor, maybe the guy did not want to rappel directly from it, and hoped the ledge for lowering would provide improved safety. Unfortunately the lowering increased the risk. It's so sad that she wasn't clipped into an anchor.
Deb's lack of anchor may have been due to a change in plans - maybe they set up the rappel first and had temporarily forgotten about the cam on p2 which she was unable to clean. Then they changed plans to figure out how to get the cam, but did not reconfigure the anchor to handle the new plan.
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