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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 10, 2009 - 09:53am PT
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Annother interesting question; what is the difference between a modern cordless drill and the compressor other than the fact that the compressor was much harder to transport? The end result is pretty much the same. Power drill.
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Tomcat
Trad climber
Chatham N.H.
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Apr 10, 2009 - 10:00am PT
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And done on lead,so I don't get it.
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mt10910 hater
climber
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Apr 11, 2009 - 08:33pm PT
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Im going to chop the whole thing. I hate bolts. Bunch of f*#king winers.
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WBraun
climber
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Apr 11, 2009 - 09:29pm PT
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You don't like the bolts in your car?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 11, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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What you don't like the San Diego Chargers? Com'on leave the team sport bashing off the SuperTaco. That just hurts.
Jim,
Great story. Those who speak the truth will always suffer the outfall.
Hey, that reminds me, completely different climb and (same) continent. There was some bigwall climb you did in Venezuela with Bev Johnson et al. on one of the Tepuis (sp?), and if I remember right there was an image in Mariah magazine with someone standing in aiders above holding up a squirming snake while making a nasty face posing for the camera below (kinda a Indiana Jones "I hate snakes" kinda look before its time). Was that snake real?
Ok, ok, I already know the answer (he-he), but others might enjoy the yarn.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 11, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
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Jim- Regarding posting on threads that you start....I like to look at it as having to go down to the store for more tequila while a party is roaring back at your house!
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Apr 11, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
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Stevie, incredibly funny.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 12, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
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bump
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adam d
climber
CA
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Apr 22, 2009 - 02:16am PT
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Greg thanks for your great perspective on the Torre. Well spoken. I wish the weather had given me a shot on it when I was down there but my last climbing day there was the only possible summit day with everything rimed and we had to settle for S as the only feasible tower consolation prize. (still fun but casual...) We met in Chalten...we shared a couple asadas and I loaned you a softshell for the glacier crossing to the cache and some shoes for Frey.
I know for sure that I'm not the one to make any decision about what to do about the compressor bolts, being a gringo who's never been up there. At this point, Maestri isn't the one to make the call either. Can't say I wouldn't like to climb it though.
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MH2
climber
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Apr 22, 2009 - 04:09am PT
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anyone happen to have a copy of the article jon krakauer wrote about climbing cerro torre
The cure for baldness? Didn't he go with the owner of Vertical World in Seattle? I think I do have a copy but unearthing it might bury other treasures or topple a stack of dusty archives onto poor old me. Here lies ?
I was riveted by the Mountain cover picture back in '72 and a co-worker must have liked it too, since it disappeared from my locker in the Vassar Brothers Hospital OR.
I did not understand the fuss over the Maestri claims. Other than Ken Wilson histrionics and/or marketing savvy. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, not likely we will ever know for sure.
The compressor seemed to come out of an unbalanced mind, but as a blot on the landscape it barely registers.
There have been great climbs done in the area before and since. Those are personal experiences but in the telling they can affect the rest of us. A Brit likened plates of ice carried in an updraft to "Eldritch spirits out of an H. P. Lovecraft story". A friend of mine who started out as a sport-climber progressed through longer climbs, big walls, the Alps, and pictures of him and his partner's boots standing on the compressor. Jim Donini et al in their time also reduced the inaccessibility/impossibility myth. And what I remember best was that they used valium to get a good night's sleep.
It was very interesting to have Mr. Donini relate the trajectory of his belief in the Maestri/Egger story.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Apr 23, 2009 - 12:55am PT
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As promised earlier, the Maestri interview portion of the Bloody Cerro Torre issue, Mountain Sept 1972. Gillman and Wilson at the prod.....
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Bump!
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Thanks Steve. Seeing that issue of Mountain brings back memories. I guess one of these days I'll get down into the basement and dig through all the old boxes... Or maybe not. If I wait long enough you'll have scanned a posted all the good stuff right here.
And btw, if you think Ken's rants were wild in print, you should have heard him in person. The man was a world-class ranter. And actually a pretty good climber, too.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
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Just back from IC. Steve, you should be nominated as climber historian laureate for ST. Klimmer, it was a rubber snake- quite a funny story behind that trip.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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So I'm reading through the article. My first impression is, that in spite of his puffery and my disagreement with , I kinda like ol' Cesare. I like his "I don't give a rat's ass" outlook, much like Warren Harding's.
I love how he talks about soloing Grade 6 [sic] routes. One wonders how many on this forum have soloed Grade VI walls.... of course one can't compare the rather friendly El Cap to the Real Mountains of danger, fear and {shudder} cold.
At the top of page 32 Ken Wilson talks about two types of ethics. People confuse ethics with style all the time, although I can't for a moment imagine him doing so. Perhaps the term style had not yet evolved?
Hey! He says that while his compressor isn't suitable for mountain climbing because it's too big, he thinks it might be useable on El Cap! Can I try it???? Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
Oh! I just read Ken Wilson's response: "You'd be lynched if you took it there." Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!!
Man, the crafty bugger was certainly evasive, wasn't he. Too bad he lied.
Steve - can you please post up the interview of Jim Bridwell that subsequently appeared in Mountain, where he describes what he found up there, and how counter it was to Maestri's claims? Also, if you could make the images a bit bigger, it would be of benefit to the myopic.
Cheers.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Maestri has #1 clearly in mind.
The only rules I observe are, firstly, not to steal other climbers gear; secondly, not to take excessive risks; and, thirdly, not to climb outside my own limit.
With all that money invested (in the compressor), you just have to get to the summit.
On the headwall it would have been possible to do about three pitches with pitons, and of course that would have been simpler, but we had left all our pegging gear at the foot.
Any semblance of style that I can relate to is just not his thing. Aw just leave the rack and grab a couple gas cans, boys!!!
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lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
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>So I'm reading through the article. My first impression is, that >in spite of his puffery and my disagreement with , I kinda like >ol' Cesare. I like his "I don't give a rat's ass" outlook, much >like Warren Harding's.
Cesare Maestri is an interesting chap. He’s the walking definition of “larger than life”: self-centred, arrogant, volatile, vengeful, sometimes full of histrionics (he comes from a showbiz family – his sister Anna was a famous actress of the 60’s and 70’s), but at the same time admirable in many ways – he had a life long marriage many people could only dream of, he’s an extremely popular with his friends, he fought (and survived) cancer with a strength that many have found inspiring. He’s big in everything he does – for good and bad, easy to admire or despise. Some of the stories surrounding his exploits in the Dolomites have an almost Whillan-ish aura, but without the petty sarcasm one sometime associate with Whillans, and the way he speaks in lectures is almost mesmerizing (even if, after watching a few of his lectures, you realize he’s following a script!).
As for Cerro Torre – sooner or later (too late, I’m afraid) the climbing community will have to realize that’s there no real evidence that he lied about the 1959 climb. Ok, a lot of people believe (or, more accurately, desperately wants to believe - at least in Italy) that he lied, but there no evidence whatsoever that he did REALLY lie. There’s of course also no evidence he climbed the bloody route too, but if we take this as “proof” that he didn’t, we should probably discount as lies something like a good 30% of all the routes or repeats you see printed into any climbing guidebook.
He definitely likes to be hated by who he thinks are his "enemies" - I believe that's his major weakness. When he sees something standing on his way, he wants (wanted - he's an old man now) it crushed. No turning around. The whole political thing is one example - he insisted for years on airing political views that were horrendously unpopular in his native NE Italy (and still are) probably believing he was above the scorn he was subjected for years. He really really really rubbed the wrong way the wrong people, and now he's paying for this.
Mind you, I'm no Maestri groupie, I've never been much interested in his climbs (even if I reckon he did plenty of amazing stuff in the Dolomites). Someone now tells "He asked for it, he should have seen it coming", but I'm not really sure anyone should be publicly humiliated and have his face rubbed on the dirt just because he wasn't universally liked, or had views not accepted by the majority.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Thanks, Lucas. I like him even more - at least I think so. What a fascinating character. Thanks for your insight.
I disagree with you, however, that there is no real evidence he lied about summitting Cerro Torre. The preponderence of evidence is strongly against him. The best presentation of this was by Rolando Garibotti, linked above. Have you read this? I would also like to again read Jim Bridwell's observations of what he found up there, which were published in a subsequent Mountain Mag.
I also disagree that there is an attempt per se to humiliate him. The core issue is whether he lied or not about climbing the mountain, and he almost certainly did. To try to get to the bottom of things isn't an attempt to humiliate, but rather to seek the truth. Of course, the truth could be humiliating.
But without even considering Cerro Torre, I would like to hear more about Maestri - the man. I'd buy him a beer anytime! Got any good stories about him?
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lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
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>I disagree with you, however, that there is no real evidence he >lied about summitting Cerro Torre. The preponderence of evidence >is strongly against him. The best presentation of this was by >Rolando Garibotti, linked above. Have you read this?
Yes, I've read it, was translated and published on ALP Cerro Torre monographic issue. It was given quite publicity here (has it happened with Salvaterra's claims when they came back from opening Arca - one entire page on the most popular Italian sport newspaper with a big black title "MAESTRI DID LIE" - may give you an idea of the atmosphere here).
Garibotti's case is well argued and interesting, but it's just a list of assumptions and circumstantial evidence at best - nothing that proves Maestri really lied. It's no real climbing history (in the positivistic sense of the term). It's just a well written resume why Garibotti thinks Maestri lied. Everything he wrote can be countered in some way. What's more worring, I could use Garibotti's method to destroy the credibility of ANY climb (my favourite example is Gervasutti's route on the East face of the Jorasses, possibily the most difficult rock route opened in the Alps before 1963 - there's NO evidence Gervasutti's opened it).
As far as I know, there's only one attempt to make a serious study of the "Maestri affair", and is Giorgio Spreafico's "Enigma Cerro Torre". BTW, Spreafico is very close to the "Ragni" climbing group, so everyone was expecting he would have savaged Maestri (so to give Casimiro Ferrari and the "Ragni" the title of "first climbers on the summit of Cerro Torre"). Instead, Spreafico just came to the only sensible conclusion - the case is and will always be (unless Maestri confess, or unless someone finds those bolts high on CT, or unless Egger's camera is found) completely undecidable. Interestingly, Gino Buscaini and Silvia Metzeltin, who had been for years the foremost historians of Patagonia climbing, felt that way.
It's the difference between "gut feeling" and hard evidence. Anyone is entitled to his gut feeling on the Maestri case, but hard evidence is another thing.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 2, 2009 - 06:39pm PT
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Lucas- I have to take serious issue with your post. You say that it can never be proven that Maestri lied and that he suffers because he rubbed people the wrong way. What do you consider proof? Perhaps a confession, but would that be proof because someone who lies once is likely to lie again. If you take time to read what I have written and the definitive article by Rolo Garibotti in the AAJ, you might come to the conclusion that the body of evidence against him is overwhelming. Because someone is "larger than life" is no reason to believe them. Maestri has tried to degrade and intimidate everyone, including Bonatti, who disagrees with him. His cynical, and in the light of the evidence, laughable dismissal of Bonatti and Mauri for naming the col between CT and the Adela the "Col of Hope" is one of the most ergregious statements in climbing history. To refresh your memory: Maestri said in explaining why he called the col between CT and Torre Egger the "Col of Conquest" and directly referring to Bonatti. "There is only the will to conquer, hope is the weapon of the weak." Guess what: Maestri never set foot on the Col of Conquest.
One of the reasons I have been passionate about climbing for so many years is
due to of the quality of the people I meet. Exceptions like Maestri come along rarely but they do exist. Thankfully he is proof positive that the exception makes the rule.
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