Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
ricardo
Gym climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
|
rockjox reminds me of another character to have blessed this site ..
what was his name ..
oh .. yeah .. BURT BRONSON ...
i bet that if BURT and ROCK were on that mountain that day .. that guide would be alive today ..
.. ahh .. "The last bastion of masculine climbing.. " .. where is he now?
|
|
Ain't no flatlander
climber
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 04:27pm PT
|
"That guy "Fede" (I think) is the only guy I see in that film I respect."
Rockjox, you really respect an illegal guide who attempts to kill 4 clients, and succeeds in killing one plus himself, by taking them to a socked in summit he hardly knew very late in the day? Meanwhile the people who busted their butts to save him get screamed at from your ill-informed armchair. Bizarre.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Upper Fupa, North Dakota
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 04:33pm PT
|
"I laugh robustly.... Rokjox, best comedy on the rocks!"
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 04:45pm PT
|
Very sad, this is.
|
|
pip the dog
Mountain climber
the outer bitterroots
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 05:07pm PT
|
ricardo,
re:
> BURT BRONSON ...
> "The last bastion of masculine climbing.. "
BURT BRONSON used to post here? wow. i ran into the BURT BRONSON experience when i first connected to the .wreck. not too long after, his line went dead.
for what it's worth, i rather enjoyed the BURT BRONSON experience. to my eye he was neither actually a self aggrandizing jerk or a troll -- he was a rather sly funny guy doing some very funny shtick. i think he was motivated just to entertain.
and yes he was massively self aggrandizing -- that was the very heart of his gag.
as for comparing the mighty BURT BRONSON to anyone, i'm new to this venue and don't know nearly enough locally to point fingers at anyone. (though i am slowly developing a few theories...)
be well,
^,,^
|
|
scuffy b
climber
just below the San Andreas
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
|
I don't think Burt Bronson really ever posted here. What you
saw on the .wreck was it, and numerous people have imitated
him since.
His Yosemite trip report was brilliant and drew out hilarious
responses, but then his creator outed himself.
|
|
TYeary
climber
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 06:50pm PT
|
I've been over 20K several times over the years on moderate technical terrain in SA. Huascaran Norte, Chopi, Ranrapalca,Tocllaraju, Quitaraju ect.. Never been guided.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but very difficult based on what I saw in the video. The poor guy was far gone already.
No tent, no bag, not enough gas in their tanks to carry him up and over and the end is predictable.
I'm not spray'in, just giving some background to my opinon.
Tony
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
|
I'd tie in with you everyday RokJox, knowing that you'd give me your all if the SHTF. But I have to say buddy, you're wrong on this one. The one dude shouldn't have been calling the victims names, no questions about it, but the dude may have had nothing else in his bag of tricks and may have been near collapse as well, and that's all he knew to do.
As far as you other assertions, you should re-read some of these other, wiser, posts above. The rescuers were obviously spent. They may have spent the previous hour working as a group until near collapse they gave up...we don't know. You saw the last few moments of a long drawn out battle for life there....that's all you saw, don't be jumping to conclusions which are most likely wrong.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
|
I agree it sucks and I too feel real bad. I don't like the way it appears he was treated.
But it was noted earlier somewhere, only once, that one or two people stayed behind with him for 4 hours until he passed away.
If true, that was a pretty decent thing to do for someone who was doomed.
This thing just sucks ass, a horrible video. It's one reason I resign myself to moderate peaks and craggin'. I like having fun and the scenery, not suffering in extreme cold and thin air.
Oh, I'd tie in with Rocky anyday...
|
|
Tiburon
Trad climber
Washington DC
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 08:17pm PT
|
Well they did hike up but they where too macho. People die due to exhaustion. They could have done more. But I'm not sure the courts are the place for justice here. It made me sick to watch it. It could happen to any of us.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 09:01pm PT
|
I'd also like to add it appears this guy died trying to keep his clients alive.
He deserved a decent way to go, hopefully he got it.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 09:26pm PT
|
It will happen again, on schedule, for the reason it happened again after the lesson was already learned a few thousand times. Only your actions can defend you and your friends.
Why?
When I came to Fairbanks Alaska I noticed that the University of Alaska had a climbing club near a superlative Alaska Range playground. But they had no mountain rescue group, and no clue of the concept. The club was primarily a bunch of environmentalist groupies with their typical attitude that the government should meet all their responsibilities for free. The environmentalists just want to play for free, and attack the rights of responsible people.
Government does not meet responsibilities. Its personnel just suck up tax dollars, arrest people for any excuse, lie about what they do, and practice incompetence since they function on government power rather than individual reasoning. The proof is manifest to everyone except the self-deluded government dolts who actually believe the lies of their superiors. They are clueless of asking questions of glaring contradictions. They can read these words, and will still never question the glaring stupidity of their superiors.
I formed a mountain rescue group among the actual local climbers, bought a rescue toboggan, radios and other common mountain rescue gear. Since I and the actual climbers were poor we suggested the government-subsidized University club might assist with the financing since their members went into the Alaska Range on occasion. They refused, clueless of the concept of meeting their responsibilities, typical of the University of Alaska and environmentalists.
The basics of a mountain rescue are that of climbers going into the mountains, putting a victim in a sleeping bag in a toboggan, and hauling him back. Add the details you want. Plain logic.
Without a toboggan, why would you go to a mountain accident victim? Yes, better than nothing, but a toboggan is too easy and logical.
We just practiced hauling body-weight loads in toboggans on Alaska Range terrain (winter storm vertical ice), partied hard in snow caves, and laughed a lot. Plain logic. The finer rescue techniques were practiced, but not at the cost of the basics.
And we offered none of the foo-foo ego paperwork official SAR certification credentials that fool fools, primarily government groupies and mountain cops. Certifications attract ego groupies, not actual mountain climbers.
What the Park Service worshiping, climber groupie "news" system does not reveal about the Park Service's impressively credentialed SAR actions and personnel, because those groupies never ASK EFFECTIVE QUESTIONS, reveals worse than the simple Argentinian error of this thread. Park Service mountaineering cop funding is based on CREATING problems in the mountains, commonly facilitating accidents and limiting rescue actions, some deadly, not SOLVING them. Effective questions reveal the Park Service lies.
The same neural process of power-damaged minds causes the institution of lawyers to CREATE lucrative court cases by discussing only the contradicting inferior laws, rather than simply revealing the related, easily verified prevailing law that resolves the contradiction without a costly court process.
The fact that the Argentinians did not have a toboggan and enough people to man-handle it in bad conditions on this particular rescue is just an ongoing learning experience among humans who inherently learn slowly.
They probably learned from the experience.
Compare that to the University of Alaska, whose environmentalist club teaches a University-credited climbing class each year, in the Alaska Range. To this date, 2009, their "climbers" and "instructors", have not produced a single local mountain rescue group member. And they have massive oil-tax University money that they use for everything except responsibilities. They teach the government mentality.
A few years ago, when they left three of their class members in the Range after a climbing class, in known bad avalanche conditions, who then did not get back home on time, rather than call the rescue group and get back to the Range with toboggans, avalanche probes, shovels, etceteras, the University "climbing class" instructor (local environmentalist activist) went back with two students and no equipment. They found an avalanche area with a section of climbing rope on the surface.
So they went back out to the nearest phone and called the State Troopers who are cops, not mountain climbers.
Three dead University students.
The University of Alaska does not care. It has a tax-funded "risk management" bureaucracy that NEEDS and facilitates such events to "manage". To this date the University has made no effort to address the teaching of a climbing class in the Alaska Range, with no mountain rescue group.
The mountain rescue group that the local climbers formed has mostly aged out of active climbing.
So climb in Argentina where they have probably learned from their recent experience, not in Alaska where, as stated by a National Park mountaineering ranger during an investigation of one non-rescue involving a multi-million dollar lawsuit, "Dead bodies in National Parks are good budget excuses."
The government, its Universities and all power-based institutions in the US teach people to NOT meet their responsibilities, which is the only way institutional power can exist.
If you climb, form your own local rescue groups with real climbers. The government SAR credential groupies/cops need and therefore facilitate dead bodies for their budgets, by design of the American government budgeting system. Less than a dozen questions prove the government propaganda as lies.
No reasoning will invade their permanently power-damaged minds. They believe themselves, and will never question their increasing contradictions. Protect your own mind from becoming so useless and malicious toward humans. Ask real questions of EVERY contradiction. Answer them.
Anyone else would have to buy a ticket all the way to planet Earth for a show like this.
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 11:01pm PT
|
Doug,
> The basics of a mountain rescue are that of climbers going into the mountains, putting a victim in a sleeping bag in a toboggan, and hauling him back.
You got that right (in places/conditions with lots of snow and no helicopter available).
But it was a little rough sorting through the surrounding opinion chat.
The 3 Univ. of Alaska kids didn't die because of an inadequate rescue - they died in the original avalanche. [edit: my guess based on Doug's description - I could be wrong.]
|
|
Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 11:02pm PT
|
dingus is the wanker. complaining about a power drill in a climbing mag then not understanding the emotion of death
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 11:05pm PT
|
crock,
Wow, great job on summarizing and linking all those sources - I read them all.
I thought the most informative postings were the ones posted by Brian from SLC on utahclimbers.com. (The guide who died, Federico Campanini, was married and living in Utah).
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 11:29pm PT
|
I came off a summit once when I could not see my knees. I was lucky in that I recognized a rock so I knew I was at the summit. And in bad conditions you need to have memorized your compass headings well beforehand.
You don't want to come down on a wrong heading.
Period.
Jeremy brings up a point that makes group trips really hard. When you are alone you can pause as needed to keep your layering dry. Inexperienced people pushing along in a group are going to be wearing wet clothing. Disaster arrives the minute you stop.
|
|
Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 11:48pm PT
|
Clint......
The timing and conditions were such that the University students may have lived if the original responders had shovels alone, and common sense instead of a "let the government do it" attitude.
A toboggan or liter does not need snow. As a previous helicopter driver having landed on high ridges in the Alaska range, a reliance on helicopters is a fool's illusion.
Regardless, the myriad of ongoing mountain accident situations each illuminate the opportunity to improve rescue techniques.
That requires reasoning process, the methodical asking and answering of questions to resolve the contradictions.
The common human dismissal of the toilsome reasoning or thinking process, as "opinion chat", or other such rhetorical dismissals, is the reason wars, inadequate rescues and all human-caused contradictions remain popular.
In time, humans will eventually learn the value of thinking (asking and answering questions).
Until then, wisely form your local mountain rescue groups with actual climbers, if you wish to do so.
DougBuchanan.com
|
|
Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
|
|
|
Feb 20, 2009 - 11:50pm PT
|
Just an observation.
I guided full time for around 12 years. I took clients up quite a lot of serious routes over those years, but always felt that I did so with a reasonable margin of Safety.
The exception was on the few high altitude trips that I went on,including Aconcagua. You would think that plodding up talus fields and snowslopes wouldn't present much of a problem compared with alpine walls of rock and ice. But to my mind at least, dealing with altitude was such a wildcard that it made those trips seem insanely dangerous.
The guides are particularly vulnerable, you just spend so much time and effort tending to your clients, so much more stress, worry and effort compared to a private ascent.
Its therefore not much of a surprise to see these high profile guiding disasters on the high peaks. The truth of the matter is that at high altitude its hard enough to look after yourself, let alone a group of inexperienced clients.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Feb 21, 2009 - 12:04am PT
|
Doug,
> A toboggan or liter does not need snow.
Right, a litter does not need snow. For a toboggan or sled, you want snow or some smooth surface.
Here's a photo which I believe shows part of the terrain in the Aconcagua rescue:
With a large group, anchors, hauling system, litter attendants, you could in theory raise the victim up this.
But it would take a lot of time and people/resources.
(I think this is what Rokjox has in mind).
I think most of us would like to see this guy getting more direct assistance, even if it is just supporting him on each shoulder.
But this may not have been possible if the rescuers were too tired.
> As a previous helicopter driver having landed on high ridges in the Alaska range, a reliance on helicopters is a fool's illusion.
I agree. They are very fast when they can fly, but in conditions where they cannot fly you have to do it with the ground team.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!