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Al_T.Tude
Trad climber
Monterey, CA
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Jan 31, 2009 - 07:23pm PT
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I was once close to marrying a woman but we eventually split up over religious differences. She was an agnostic and I'm an atheist. We couldn't agree on how to raise the children.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 31, 2009 - 08:03pm PT
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Hey, that sounds a lot like something I heard Woody Allen say.
I like " I'm not afraid to die; I just don't want to be there when it happens."
W.A.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 31, 2009 - 11:10pm PT
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Dr Failed -- "But, I have studied this exhaustively, and have a stronger argument for no God, than the advocates for a God."
Only in your own warped mind.
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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I don't believe in 'God', but I'll go to church with Moosie, any time!
Well put, John!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Gezzz Guys, just got home. Kinda late. Friend had a special bday party. :D Yo, Locker I did behave. New seaweed leaf in the aquarium of life....if yo get my drift.
Anyway Guys, I am reading all this stuff about Lynne this and Lynne that. Pretty Funny. Just want to say there is no need to apologize or whatever. It is debate and discussion. If honest and from the thoughtful heart this is Good. Helps clarify what you think and makes all us others rethink our positions.
Will respond tomorrow....hopefully. Mum just got home from the hospital and Dad needs shoring up : ))
Finally, I want to welcome Rudder to the Taco. I believe yo said earlier that you had not really posted here before, just listened. Welcome Bro ! :D
Good Eve to Ya !
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Lynnie walks the walk. Good on ya Sister!
Peace
Karl
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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We do be trying Karl : D (who I so much appreciate) and God Bless yo everyone.
We will commence tomorrow..."God willing and the creek don't rise" .... As my grandpa used to tell me. Jess meaning don't take manana for granted. Peace and Good Dreams. lrl
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WBraun
climber
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You're pretty open minded Rocky.
You're pretty sharp too.
Best of all you're pretty funny a lot times.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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I disagree with Rokjox. I definitely think that I'm Agnostic. I don't know if there is a God. I would love to believe in one. But after years of searching, I can't find a "God" that can explain the cruel world "He" or "She" created. The Bible doesn't give an answer. Nor does the Koran. The Buddhist avoid the question like "one hand clapping" avoids the other hand.
I guess being Agnostic means that I'll keep looking. Keep listening with respect to people like Lynne, people who have "found" something.
In the meantime here's a joke for us Agnostics:
What was God doing the day before He created the Universe?
He was creating Hell for people like us.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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"The believer," as Nietzsche observed, "is not free to have any conscience at all for the question of 'true or untrue': to have integrity on this point would be his end. The pathological condition of his point of view turns those convinced by it into fanatics-- Savonaorla, Luther, Rousseau, Robespierre, Saint-Simon-- the opposition-type to the strong spirit who has become free. Yet the grand pose of these sick spirits, these epileptics of the concept, takes effect on the great mass. The fanatics are picturesque.
Mankind would rather see gestures than hear proofs."
The hardest thing is to embrace the odd combination of horror, joy and mediocrity that life is and take from it everything you can while all taking is mediated by the realization that I and the other are one.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Good Eve to Yo All..... : D
Ok, back to it. Dr. F wrote, " She (Lynne) is a Christian only because she was born surrounded by Christians and went to Christianity since it was socially acceptable for her, to get her belief and faith healing placebo effect."
If you stand in a race horses's stall you are not necessarily a race horse. If one is born surrounded by Christian's (are they really ?) that does Not make Yo a Christian.
One is a Christ follower when you believe the Words of Jesus and Follow them. Period.
I did try other spiritual beliefs in my late teens and early 2o's. Studied and practiced Eastern religion. Also studied a variety of philosophies in college and jr. college. (got A's from a mid eastern professor who liked that I cared so much to find the truth in each philo he taught.) None of them helped Lynnie live her life in truth and beauty, tho. Still the same old Lynne.
I have explained before on ST how a series of poor choices lead me to a dead end in my life. I had rejected Jesus long before that. But again, through a series of incredible circumstances, I was confronted with the Christ.
I decided to ask Him (humbly and honestly) to come into my life and show me His Way. Oh, by the way, He is no parasite. He Frees, he liberates, he loves.... Since then life has been upward and peace and joy keep expanding. (Not perfectly of course, I have my ups and downs...doubts and Troubles majorly)
Finally, with most religions, beliefs etc. a person needs an instructor, a group or a book or all. What is very Incredible about Jesus is that if you have no teacher or no printed material you can still have access to God. God will meet anyone that wants to meet Him. Anywhere.
God says, " Draw near to me and I will draw near to you." So even someone in the most remote place on earth with no teachers or written material can have a relationship with their creator. Just honestly and humbly say yo want one.
Peace to you all at the end of a day that was given to each one of us as a blessing. Mayhap we will have a tomorrow, maybe not. Count each moment as precious and each person in your life as a gift. :D
Joy, Lynne
ps, guess yo would not be surprised that the song "Joy to the World....joy to the fishes in the deep blue sea..." was (still is) a favorite of mine....hehehe
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Jaybro
Social climber
wuz real!
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"The hardest thing is to embrace the odd combination of horror, joy and mediocrity that life is and take from it everything you can while all taking is mediated by the realization that I and the other are one."
Very nice, Roehl
There is a bit in one of the Joseph Campbell interviews conducted by Bill Moyers (Prolly appears in one of Mr Campbell's books as well) that concerns "the other:", in the way you mentioned.
Guy was gonna end it all by jumping off the railing at a scenic overlook in Hawaii.
Guy starts jumping and it seems too late for anyone to save him. 5-0 is there and grabs him at the last moment, they both teeter on the abyss. looks like they are both headed for the wet, dry dive, but somehow the balance worked out to keep them both, high and alive.
"Why did you do that?" asked Joe of the cop, "You risked your own life, for that of a stranger, you have kids..."
"When I saw him about to go, I saw myself. His life was my life. We were both, part of what he would throw away if he killed himself. It was no choice but to do what I could, to save us."
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Social climber
valley center, ca
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Well, Locker, someone earlier said I was a Christian cause I was raised by Christians. I was trying to respond by saying that just cause you are associated with something does not necessarily make you "that something". Make sense ?
I'm pretty tired. Sorry. Been taking care of Mum all day and making her do her phisical therapy and cooking and trying to cheer up Dad.... and NOT climbing....hehehe. How is yo Mom? I pray for her. She must be a special person. : D
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Hi Lynne
I think the point was more like, "are you quite certain that if you had been raised in 95% Muslim Saudi Arabia, that you would have found Christ?" and how does that reflect of the Justice of God (assuming 'christains' claim exclusive truth and salvation)
That's at lot of assumptions, and, of course, you weren't raised Saudi so how would you really know.
Still an interesting though experiment for all of us who assume that our ways might be best but happen to coincide with the society around us.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Del wrote
"There is a woman, recently in the news, who can vividly remember details from every day of her life (she's about 25). Her earliest memory was from when she was less than two. Has she remained, at age 25, true to her two year old nature? On the other hand I can barely remember what I did last year (or last week). Have I changed that much? "
Some people have special gifts (or some would say abilities perhaps developed in past lives) How did Mozart compose complex inspired music at age 4?
Some people claim to remember very specific details from past lives. I know some of them. They mostly don't care to expose themselves to claims of nuthood from skeptics but many have validated their claims.
There are even "past life regression audio programs" I downloaded one and followed it's directions just during the past couple weeks. I found myself as a samurai in the early 1500s, fighting and dying in some war that was too much for me to bring to awareness. I had never studied the Samurai at all and didn't even have a clue if they even existed in the 1500s or whether there was peace or war then.
Just checked it out to validate this post. There were indeed Samurai then and it was a period of war.
My girlfriend however, has some amazing recall abilities to revisit past lives in places she never dreamed that she was connected to. It's a real trip. The most vivid memories, like in this life, are often horrible, traumatic times and its sad the things the people have done to others during periods of our lesser evolution. (we mostly get better over time)
Even worse, we are not just victims but perpetrators. I can tell you that I've abused power in past lives and been responsible for a lot of needless death. Apologies from the heart all around if in some dark corner of our long history, I've been responsible for the pain and suffering of anybody year.
(disclaimer, that was for past lives, I'm only half sorry for making ya'll suffer in thise one)
Doesn't prove much to anybody who is not inclined to agree eh?
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Rox, some folk see God as a Being in which every possibility exists.
Time is just an illusion created when awareness (our soul) travels along the lines of those possibilities.
Everything that we can think of, can exist.
Scary!
In any case, one thing I have observed over and over again, and you can take to the bank. If you change yourself, the world changes around you. The world is much more fluid that we suspect.
The biggest boogeyman turning our lives into crap is fear. Out of fear arises jealousy, insecurity, repression of love, and all manner of dysfunction.
Fear is also related to the lack of forgiveness that we have for ourselves and others. This divides us from within and takes our joy and power away.
God or no God, I promise that if you try to move through fear with open eyes and courage, and forgive yourself and others, that your life will change vastly for the better and you won't have the slightest worry about whether there is God or not. Some Divine feeling will just begin to reside in you whether you are thinking about it or not.
Read my post on forgiveness, if there's anything of mine you off topic that you consider worth reading.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=624618
Peace
Karl
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Prod
Trad climber
A place w/o Avitars apparently
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As an Atheist I take exception to Karl B’s assertion that Atheists, or this Atheist, are/ is arrogant. For a long time I had considered myself an Agnostic, but recently decided to change the moniker to one of an Atheist. I have made this decision based on the evidence that I have examined from many arenas. This lack of arrogance comes from the understanding that “We” do not know, and the willingness to evaluate new evidence as it is discovered. This is not too dissimilar from many scientific stances on a broad range of subjects including global warming being caused by human carbon emission. I chose to stop calling myself Agnostic as many people confuse this assertion with an admission of spirituality. I currently am not at all spiritual, not one bit. I think when it’s over, it’s over.
Side rant…Unfortunately for many you don’t even get to rot in the ground to become plant food because religions (lots of em) have decided that we need to be entombed and in many cases preserved, or burned. Ironically these ceremonies are in direct contradiction with how the rest of the creatures on this earth exist and perish. Funny that if there was a grand creator, it most likely would not like this deviation from the “Natural” cycle of things….. End of rant.
Show me solid evidence or arguments otherwise and I’ll surly listen. The beauty of science is that you are supposed to question and evaluate not just accept.
No offence meant by the above Karl.
Cheers,
Prod.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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No worries Prod
and I agree that it's too bad we can't feed ourselves to the worms. The Tibetans and Farsis in India often feed the dead to vultures.
The only thing I would ask you to consider when deciding there is NO God is this.
What assumptions are built into your equations? Sometimes we make unprovable assumptions about what a God must be like, or what this world is like, when that remains unknown at some level (our view has changed immensely in the past 100 years, who can say that won't continue)
You can imagine that it's probably like a group of 4 year olds getting together and trying to understand and systematize the world of adult politics, money and sex. Doesn't matter how many 4 year olds you get, you can't base your assessment about the adult world from the traditions the 4 year olds have set out.
Again, as an example, let's say we were all characters in some persistent dream of God. How would us dream characters go about proving whether we were being dreamed by a Being in an entirely different dimension or not?
Don't play word games with it or be too strict about how human dreams word. Feel the issue at hand.
Peace
Karl
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
North of the Owyhees
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Any body got any duct tape?
I need to do some cat tossin', and I'm outa tape........
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Rokjox, all of the stuff you describe can exist without there being a GOD. Ramping up to ten-dimensional physical models does not require or imply the existence of any special kind of consciousness "living" there.
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