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WBraun
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:44am PT
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Don't worry Philo. These threads don't bother me.
I was just pointing out the real world ....
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:47am PT
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Wait! The world IS real!?!?!? Now I am confused and probably need a rescue.
Werner do you make house calls?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:51am PT
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Phil, take the silver bullet out for a cruise, and let the snow slide off your cag....
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
somewhere without avatars.........
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Dec 29, 2008 - 11:56am PT
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Wow! This one is jumping, as is any thread dealing with Israel. I just read the first and last few pages.
I'm not sure Nazis is was the right word... I've always considered Israel to be States sponsored terrorists. Seems more fitting to me.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 29, 2008 - 12:34pm PT
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Skip, maybe if you get some time you can read the thread for the beginning and notice that you've got into a reactive mode where you're not your best self. It shows but you don't know it. You're not responding to any facts, nor are your stating any. You're just making assumptions and expanding on them.
Now say they are gangs in your town and they are robbing innocent tourists at the park. Nobody seems to be able to stop them. Is that an excuse to lock down the town, bomb it (killing lots of kids) and cut off it's food and power supply? There are millions of people living in tiny Gaza.
FYI, I've never been Buddhist. I'm every bit as much Christian as Buddhist. But our ability to look at our own actions and those of our faith are important. You're making a lot of blanket statements about the Palestinians but think it's somehow sacrilage to note that your own faith has been involved with murder of innocents just as widespread and unjustified as any Palestinian resistance (or is history spreading lies? Give us some counter-evidence)
You wrote
"It is very important to point out that the groups you speak of (Tibetans, African Americans.....) never once thought it OK to kill innocent people completely unrelated to the incidents in question."
Actually some Tibetans, African Americans and such did, they were just in the minority.
"Seems to me Ghandi handled his problems pretty successfully.
Of course he was killed by a radical Muslim."
Actually, Gandhi was killed by a radical Hindu who thought Gandhi was giving away too much power to the Muslims in negotiations.
Ironic
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 12:40pm PT
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Karl, I've noticed Skipt's change in demeanor too. I suppose it's natural when dealing the unsolvable problem of our time, and debating people on the other side of the issue.
There aren't easy solutions and the tit-for-tat nature of this conflict is frustrating, hard to define who's retaliating for what.
I'll stick to my guns and say Iran is the root of this ongoing conflict. It wasn't originally but it now perpetuates the conflict through proxies.
The f*#king Saudis never help either.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 12:41pm PT
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"You're just making assumptions and expanding on them."
Karl,
I think you have pointed out one of the major reasons for the mess in the first place.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 12:43pm PT
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I was going to mention that Hindu thing but didn't want to overload Skip.
Karl you seem like you might be a formidable and enjoyable opponent at chess.
Survival were you going to say "cage"?
The Philvo is still purring along.
Can''t decide if we should sell it as a redundant vehicle or
keep it around till my eldest decides he finally wants a license.
Happy New Year to you all. Even you Skip. I really mean it!
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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I think a brand new Hooters restaurant opening door would make a good neighbor.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:04pm PT
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You guys don't really help the issue by looking at this as a 'me against you' arguement. The paleo people always suffer the most (sometimes Israeli settlers) and Hamas or Fatah plays the victim card.
The paleo people should reject ALL violence against Israel and seek help from Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. As in neutral leadership w/o Iranian ties. That rules out Syria, but Jordan should step up to the plate here. Jordan is a pretty moderate gov't...reasonable.
Why do they never get much help from their 'brothers'?
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:13pm PT
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Cool...I'll send you my address Fatty.
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UncleDoug
Social climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:13pm PT
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bluering,
Look closely and understand what you are typing........ and apply it to the "the other side" - who's opinion and concerns are just as valid.
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Bamm_Bamm
Social climber
I'm lost, Please help me!!!
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:15pm PT
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I can't believe I am doing this again.
While skipt may be all of the things you say here in this thread say, they don't even come close to vitriol hatred that I have watched in this forum for the last year.
I think this is just a matter of "You can't take what you dish out" thing going on. Your being hoisted on your very own petard.
And Karl, I have watched your posts also,
You do bash other peoples religion a lot. You just do it subtly to cover it up.
Its still bashing no matter how you do it.
Peace
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:17pm PT
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
Warner, NH
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:19pm PT
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Shame on you. All of you.
This is a conflict that has been raging for centuries, and you think you know the solution?
This is none of our business. I take a side, yet I choose to leave it unsaid. Why? Because it's not our business!
I understand that we need to keep diplomatic ties through this whole situation, but the thought of imposing our might sickens me.
Let me clarify, so you don't get it twisted. By might, I only mean diplomatic muscle flexing. I think that we need to quit being a nation that condones and supports foreign wars and one that understands is might, yet chooses not to use it.
I believe in peace, intervention in others issues seems counter intuitive, as it only breeds more violence.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
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Doug, try to state you points more clearly to limit the 'chatter' on these threads.
Hamas was elected in a democratic manner by the people. It is a legit gov't entity that condones mortars and rocket-fire against Israel, sometimes indirectly.
As a legit gov't entity, Hamas has an obligation to police it's borders and reign in 'rogue' elements that may jepordize it's positions. Islamic Jihad, Pop Front, etc, get almost free reign under Hamas.
That's wrong. If Hamas can't control it's people as a gov't they need a change.
This brings us to why Hamas was elected. The promised the world and delivered next to nothing. The are just power-hounds, they don't give a crap about the civi population.
Israel is defending it's civi's from a terrorist onslaught.
Edit: Bamm Bamm's right too, Karl. You're more subtle, but no better than Skipt in letting you rage come through. I do it too!
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:27pm PT
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Israel should take a lesson from WWII: obliterate the Palestinian/Hamas Authority; reduce the Palestinians to the state of prehistory; crush the moral of the Palestinian people to the point of total collapse. Make it clear that this is their future to the end of time unless they are willing to except the future existence of Israel unequivocally. As with the Axis powers at the end of WWII, now you can rebuild with an independent, Palestinian state. Establish a neutral commission of democratic states to oversee the final settlements. It would be fair for Israel to deny right of return and except the 67 boundaries. Israeli settlements in the West Bank would be required to evacuate or they would be left behind and on their own -- kiss them off. An international body would oversee the economic rebuilding of the Palestinian state with total independence from Israeli interference. The US would have to monitor the above with the understanding that the US would take a rigid, neutral stance and mean it. It would be understood that radicals on either side would be crushed.
Brutal. Yes brutal. Remember, though, that the majority of Palestinians have supported the policies of Hamas and the PLO in respect to the attacks etc. Sometimes it's necessary to tear all the way down to rebuild. The above is radical. One side or the other is going to have to win completely or this will continue on and on.
This won't happen of course; but something like it will happen or the day will come when far worse will in the ME.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:35pm PT
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Woody, you may be right. It may have to happen to settle the conflict.
I ask everyone though, why has the West Bank been so silent in this conflict? Is it because it is controlled by Fatah and not Hamas? Is Fatah the future of Palestine?
Hamas definately is not. Fatah, with their flaws, is more reasonable than Hamas. Abbas is no saint, but he's somewhat reasonable.
This crap needs to end...one way or another, it stokes too many other conflicts (justifiably so or not).
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 01:43pm PT
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Be sure to pitch to him our Hooters idea.
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 29, 2008 - 02:25pm PT
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JEleazarian said: Much of my mother's family lived in Lebanon, until it was torn apart by civil war that was an outgrowth of the Arab-Israeli conflict, in which I hold the Israeli government as responsible as the Palestinians. I still have one first cousin in Beirut. I have no reason to support Israel, but the incivility of the anti-Israeli comments on this thread sickens me.
Of course there are two sides to this story, and I have often had more sympathy for the Palestinians than for the Israeli government (and sometimes, sad to say, its people) on many issues, but Israel was established by the world community, given the right to exist, threatened violently by its neighbors (except, of course, Lebanon!), and attacked with illegal deadly force continually.
In that circumstance, your calling the Israelis Nazis because they fight back, scabang, and your vitriolic, hate-mongering words I can only hold in contempt. Your comments aren't designed to foster debate; they only betray a seething, tormented, mind incapable of tolerating those with whom you disagree. That's rather like what you accuse the Israelis of doing.
Cut it out!
John
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