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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Aug 19, 2007 - 06:47pm PT
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I agree that these issues should be settled by the regulars of the area. Coalition members are no longer regulars of the area so we need some new voices.
Since both Rich and Don have weighed in and don't want anything to do with the issue, I'll drop it here and take it up in the Needles with the regular climbers in the area.
This has been productive because the first ascentionists don't consider the route their property and don't claim the right to decide.
Thanks to all for your comments and opinions.
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I'm hurtin . . .
Ice climber
land of cheese and beer
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Aug 19, 2007 - 10:47pm PT
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The thread began with the recollection and description of a route put up in the traditional ground-up Needles style that embodies adventure, vision, and commitment. And of course there are hundreds of Needles routes on which one can still get the traditional experience. And when you talk to sport and traditional climbers from across the country, you'll find that most of them have visited the Needles, and of course the routes they remember best and appreciate the most are routes like the Needles Eye, Superpin, and Hairy Pin.
Unfortunately, most (not all) of the new routes are top-down and lack that vision and adventure. Not because the opportunities don't exist, but because the new 'regulars' don't want to put in the effort to go find them.
And to say that the Black Hills Climbing Coalition members are no longer regulars?! Truly demonstrates lack of vision and narrowness of mind.
Dave Rone
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hogger
Trad climber
great plains
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Aug 25, 2007 - 11:38pm PT
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I've so enjoyed this thread and the history it is producing, my thanks to the responders who created some of the old, bold classics. I'm reluctant to comment on the upgrade issue for fear of furthering the discussion here but am concerned about any rash changes. The new routes mentioned are fun, safe and appreciated but my two cents say that the classics along the road shouldn't be made "safer". I witnessed a lead of the 5.10 route on the Eye last week where the leader placed 5 nuts along with clipping the bolt on the way to the shoulder, slung a crystal with a nut backing it up for a directional halfway up the arete, and got a bomber nut and two cams besides the pitons in the horizontal seam near the top.
Back to history please, more pics would be great!
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Aug 29, 2007 - 03:33pm PT
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"...FOR FEAR OF FURTHERING THE DISCUSSION..." ??? Jeez, that would be horrible, we don't want to know what other climbers are thinking.
What about the fact that Don, the climber who put up the route, stated on this thread that he would like to see bolts to replace the pins with the first bolt placed lower to protect from ground fall. Is that too scary to talk about?
The 5.10 variation from the parking lot to the horn/shoulder doesn't count toward this discussion because its not on the route. The original way to get to the horn/shoulder involves about seventy feet of unprotected climbing at about 5.6/5.7 here and there. No one is suggesting that should be changed.
Sounds like the climber you watched placed a lot of psychlogical pro...and doing so means he didn't climb the route Don climbed so whats the point?
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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It appears that discussion of replacing the pins with bolts has ended.
Having taken an informal pole of regular climbers who climb in the Needles every summer, the consensus seems to be that replacing the two pins with two bolts is a good idea. It also is in agreement with Don Storjohann who posted his preference on this thread.
Next season should see the change.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 4, 2007 - 04:58pm PT
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Perhaps not quite. I'm glad you didn't try to cite me as agreeing with your plan, since I clearly do not. The only entity that has the resources to actually consult local climbers is the BHCC. Your definition of who constitutes local climbers is, well, just your definition. Someone else might have another definition that excludes you. In view of this, and to the extent that first ascentionist's views count for anything, I am opposed to you carrying out the proposed bolting. Since you are fond of quoting Don's position, I hope in any future discussions you will remember to bring up my opposition as well.
Please note that this has nothing to do with whether there should be zero, one, or two (now its up to two?) bolts. It has to do with finding a mechanism that genuinely reaches and considers the opinions of as many users as possible before making any decisions.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Looks like a tie. = don't mess with it!
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jstan
climber
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Mr. Hammer:
If it is your hope to do work that advances the
enjoyment climbers in the Needles get from their pursuit,
my experience in the Shawangunks from the 60's and 70's
may be of use to you in your effort.
The people there engineered a major change in
what we did, with very little rancor, a high level of
cooperation and that change has persisted now some forty
years. I don't know whether I helped or I hindered that
change but I did unilaterally decide to speak and to hold up
for public consideration the problems we faced. On one
occasion I put some blue ribbons in the bushes to see if
trails might help and some good friends perceived this as
unilateral action of an irreversable nature. Quite rightly they
took them down and I apologized.
My point. In these situations any action perceived as
being unilateral is highly destructive of the common good.
The well is poisoned and no matter how good one's
intentions may have been, only damage to everyone will
result. In the process the usefulness of the instigator will be
permanently destroyed. The danger you face is very high.
Now I certainly don't want to discourage those who
want to help make visible the problems we face. The
rewards you get for doing this successfully are immense
and stay with you permanently. There is no better feeling
than knowing you helped people do a very hard job and to
do it well.
I also learned something of great value. At the time
I knew I was, by nature, not well qualified for the job. So I
determined to think only in terms of getting better at it. Just
the way one has to approach climbing itself. What comes
out is one is constantly learning from people, many of whom
will be disagreeing with you.
Anyone wishing to lead, has first to decide they are willing
to follow. For that is what leading is.
EDIT:
There are a number of people on ST, and elsewhere,
who have much experience in these kinds of things. So
there are many places from which you can get help and
counsel.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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I don't believe the needles eye belongs to the climbers themselves for their discussion only. It happens to be one of the most photographed places in the hills on a highly traveled road of people from all over. Why don't you ask everyone? This is exactly why I took the path of less visability years ago. Some people have a very narrow minded view of public property. They climb it, they own it.
Give me a break.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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jus' my opinion, yo. From a one time local who grew as much as the Grinch's heart did, leading that pitch.
Johnboy, do nonclimbers care where pro is or whether it's fixed, or whether it works, as long as they get to enjoy and take the odd photo? Do we tell them how to drain their holding tank?
"This is exactly why I took the path of less visability years ago. Some people have a very narrow minded view of public property."
-does this make some inherent sense that escapes the eye? please advice.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Fantastic thread! Don't rule out the use of a stainless steel pinbolt for refitting historically significant routes. These are cut from 3/16" stainless angle and can be shaped and ground to fit custom. Also shown is a Leeper replica cut from the same angle stock. I make these things and may be able to help you preserve the unique flavor and feel of Needles classics while still providing a solid, lasting protection point. You have to have some solid tool skills but the installation should be pretty straightforward. I also have a blackening agent to reduce shine and visibility.
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jstan
climber
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I can't speak for John's message but, of course, can't avoid
expressing mine.
If I held legal title to the Needles, including all associated
rights such as for minerals, the law says I could strip mine
the place. In the case of the Needles I would probably face a
lawsuit extraneous to simple property rights, but that would
be adjudicated by a court and/or legislative action.
Personally, in the scenario I paint, I would hope the state
would buy out my interest or in some other way send me
packing.
When ANYONE who cannot prove they hold legal title to
land, nonetheless argues they can use, modify, or deny its
use by others on an equal footing, they face the burden of
proof to the satisfaction of all other parties that what they
propose is not prejudicial to anyone's interest. In the case of
lands owned publicly, it is a simple matter of equity. My
interest supersedes the interest of no other taxpayer. If I
want to change a wilderness in a way that reduces the
enjoyment another user can get from that area, I face a
substantial burden.
Even though I have had some experience in climbing I have
to say when I am wandering around in a wilderness area in
JTNP, enjoyimg the peace and natural environment, my
enjoyment is materially decreased when I encounter a grid
bolted wall. (So that there is no misunderstanding, Jaybro, I
don't for a minute believe you and I are in disagreement.)
Land management policies are the mechanism that will
thread this needle for us all. They are difficult but that is the
lay of the land. Climbers need to get used to this difficulty if
they want to survive. To those climbers who believe we have
the right to do as we please anywhere, I can only suggest
they take the time to look for the check stub showing where
they checked their brain.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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"Johnboy, do nonclimbers care where pro is or whether it's fixed, or whether it works, as long as they get to enjoy and take the odd photo?"
Some do, and some don't. If asked if they'd prefer a picture without pro hanging on it, my money would be that they prefer with out. But the catch there is, "if asked"
"Do we tell them how to drain their holding tank?"
No, not how, but where they can.
""This is exactly why I took the path of less visability years ago. Some people have a very narrow minded view of public property."
-does this make some inherent sense that escapes the eye? please advice."
It merely means I decided to take my rock enjoyment to less public places instead of partaking in the wars that insued.
Sorry I got myself sucked into this off topic discussion and am detracting from a great thread. No more out of me.
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wiclimber
Trad climber
devil's lake, wi
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I'm thinking Hammer is out to rile the group.
Anyone that goes up there and does something like that to a climb like that after only "consulting" her little group of climbing friends is asking for major trouble.
I wish her luck. I think she's smarter than that.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Rich,
I cited people who climb here in the Needles every year, people who have been questioning the trustworthiness of pitons that have been in place for forty years. I haven't seen you here in the twenty two years I've been climbing here.
BHCC members do not climb in the Needles anywhere near as much as the people I've cited, that's why I say they no longer represent the local climbing community. I don't know how many members they have but I do know that a very small handful (fewer than six) are responsible for defining the local 'ethic', and again, they don't climb here anymore.
I think replacing the existing pins with modern bolts will not change the character of the route, just add an element of 'safety', the route will still be very run out and will still be R/X rated, and will still be climbed very infrequently.
Of the climbers who come here from other areas I am guessing that fewer than one percent lead the Eye. Do we really want to save a 'risk your life' route in its original condition for so few ?
I have heard no reasonable arguement for leaving the route the way it is.
And wiclimber, I've been trying to consult the rest of you but you are all to afraid to let your opinions be known until you are pushed to the brink, as evidenced by this thread.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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The surest way to lose something is to undervalue it. Hammer- are you climbing the routes that you propose to retrobolt?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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This has been a great thread. Kind of hate to see it degenerate into an ethics thing.
I only visited the Needles a few times and that was many years ago. One of the reasons I went there was for climbs like Superpin, Hairy Pin and the Needles Eye. Kind of funny, but I really wanted to do the Chimney thing on Needles Eye but it looked to scary so I opted for the direct face which was harder but I at least knew what I was getting into (the moves getting out of the chimney onto the face looked scary from below). As an outside visitor I mixed my trip up with the sport climbing at Rushmore.
What you have there is a very special area. It would be great to preserve the boldness. If you are going to go to all the trouble of re-bolting, why dont you just go replace the pins? IMHO that would be the right thing to do. If memory serves me correctly werent those pins in a horizontal?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 5, 2007 - 12:44pm PT
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Hammer,
Your propensity to dismiss other local groups is precisely what worries me.
The Black Hills Climber's Coalition has a website at http://www.bhclimbers.com/. On June 30th, they had 25 climbers for a clean-up activity. On July 27, they sponsored a lecture by Paul Piana to raise money for...why, bolt and anchor replacement in the Needles of all things. The next day they hosted the Ten Pins pumpfest.
The Web site has a route repair page, which mentions a focus on areas in Custer State Park, and contains lists of work done. They say, "please come to a meeting or get a hold of the Bolting Committee member if you have a route suggestion." The head of the bolting committee can be contacted at rich.barry@crazyhorse.org. Other members are Mike Cronin, Bruce Junek, Brent Kertzman, Duane Martenson, Ron Yahne and
Jason McNabb. Perhaps you should join this committee.
In making decisions about changing the historical nature of routes, I would urge the committee to cast a wide net in soliciting opinions. The Needles is a complicated area and is quite capable of supporting various climbing groups without their being much communication between them. I have been there for several weeks at the same time as friends who I never encountered. And even the definition of locals is complicated. Don Storjohann was from Minden, Iowa, but had a large number of Needles ascents, including the Needle's Eye and also a route on Edison Memorial. Perhaps there are others as well. Kamps, Gill and I were arguably "locals" for a ten-year period, even though Kamps lived in LA, Gill lived in Kentucky, and I lived in New York.
Once again, I want to emphasize that I am not advocating placing or not placing bolts. All I'm saying is that the decision to alter historical routes should be as broadly based as possible, and in my opinion an official group with a relationship with the authorities and the web resources to solicit opinions widely is the appropriate way to go.
John Stannard has posted various comments that are worth reading. I believe there is no one in the history of American climbing who has had such a profound effect on the direction of a climbing area. His wisdom is substantial and his effectiveness was unprecedented at the time and is unequalled to this day. Remember that actions that appear narrowly based and unilateral can generate severe reactions. Bolts can be removed. And replaced. Surely no one wants to see such a scenario played out on the Needles Eye.
The discussion may be over here. But if you really care about the Needles, you should make sure that the discussion is just beginning.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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"To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war."
 Winston Churchill, speaking at the White House in 1954
I've never been to the Needles, but certainly agree with rgold and jstan's comments above.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Cool photos, Steve G, I'd be psyched to see those crop up in new and replacement spots.
-Coiuld you scribe "No gud" on a couple?
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