Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
Maestri, a not-altogether unlike Harding character, got intense grief for bringing a bolt compressor up there. Now, I don't think anybody would think twice about somebody establishing a route using a Hilti. Perhaps a bit ahead of his time, after all, Maestri and Cerro Torre history are totally inseparable.
and it's true, they didn't have the same gear or techniques back then, there was plenty of uncertainty, Maestri was no loser.
Heck, even the weather seems like it's better these days. 30-50 years from now it will be more like EL Cap and the next Eric Kohl will solo something up there in many days at A5.
and speaking of bad weather, how many times have parties been desperately bailing in a storm and had their butts saved by Maestri's bolts? Kinda looks like Josh's ascent might not have even happened without them.
For those who don't know, a lot of reasoning/rationalization has taken place over what constitutes "Summiting" on Cerro Torre. Some folks say that since the Mushroom is just ice and a temporary coating on the mountain, that you can say you summited by just getting to the base of the Mushroom. Naturally, the folks who claw/tunnel/thrash to the tippy-top sometimes dispute that claim. This is further complicated by the fact that sometimes the mushroom is doable and sometimes it's a nightmare.
But hey, Cerro Torre seems to attract this kind of drama so let the adventure drama roll!
Peace
karl
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
I'm with Lucas in that people should realize just how great a climber Maestri was in his day.
I'd like to hear from Mike Clifford who has not only summited the Torre but also paid a record sum at the AAC auction for the part of the compressor that Bird "salvaged" with his hammer.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Nice post - for a blonde. If Steve were a girl-blonde, with a heart of passion like that, he'd most likely give you the shaggin' of your life, and later drive you crazy.
However he would also have the ovaries to apologize when he had hurt someone, making his a very manly post.
Don't chop the route - leave the bolts in place. Nature will take care of them eventually, and it's doubtful anyone will replace them.
Only a lameass would claim an ascent of Cerro Torre without climbing the summit mushroom, because it's the mushroom that makes the climb so hard! Obviously Cerro Torre is desperately hard if a talented hardman wall climber like Steve is O fer 3 on the thing.
Karl's analogy of Maestri's compressor compared to today's [sport-climbing pussy] Hilti drill gives me pause for thought. Using artificial means to drill bolts used to be considered cheating, and it bloody still should be.
|
|
lucasignorelli
climber
Torino, Italy
|
|
Nobody is perfect Luca
The Maestro was a bad ass mother
There is no dis-honor in that...
The Maestro is less perfect than a lot of people can imagine - a self centred, aggressive, publicity seeking, bad tempered bastard, an anarchist, an unrepentant atheist, a terminal prankster, a notorious womaniser (but only before he married - another typical Maestri trait, as his wife Fernanda was "the best girl in town"), abusive against those who he felt were attacking him, revengeful, a loudmouth, a real pain-in-you-know-what...
...and one of the best rock climber of his age - strong and bold beyond belief, technically superb, never let down one of his partner, could climb F6a in his big boots and IN DESCENT - how many climbers of the 60's could do that? How come that, in his many shortcomings, no one ever could nail him as a liar in his other many accomplishments?
And about the Torre (a mountain I know nothing about) - if he lied about the North ridge, why didn't he simply came back and bolted his way up THAT line instead of the SW route, so to clear up his tracks? And moreover - if Maestri had been a US or UK or France climber, would have his own community left him alone, being called all around the world "a liar"?
I'm not saying that Maestri didn't lie about the 1959 climb - I've no real knowledge about this, and I'm no Cerro Torre expert. But nothing I've heard about this story (including Ermanno Salvaterra opinion repeated to the press and on some website) is for me convincing enough to endorse a public lynching of someone I think deserves at least the benefit of doubt.
Luca Signorelli
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Illogical in one person's judgement does not equal liar.
I've climbed formations by several different routes, because it's challenging and/or fun. I guess I was illogical?
I'm totally with you for your calculation of 3 trips for $20K, half a year of life and having a dream.
I'm not so much into judging a route by whether the FA person may or may not have been a liar. When routes have been around for long enough to get some traffic (or not), they can be judged on their own merits. Although the history will be of some value to some people. (I guess it's when the history is uncertain that it gets tricky).
|
|
jackass
climber
|
|
Riley,
Didn't you hear Donini? He said 5.4 via ferata, why would you need to climb 5.12?!
Also, about the 20,000 dollar thing. WAY off. Going to El Chalten is very cheap. Nothing to it. Easy access, easy approach. If you spent 1500 to 2000 per trip, that would be a lot. (Depending on where you go and what you do...) But to go to Cerro Torre from the states is way cheap. I am pissed though because when I was there last with my wife, I didn't realize that there was a 5.4 via ferata... she climbs at 5.6, so we could have cruised it!
By the way, one of the more beautiful places on Earth, even if you aren't a climber.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Riley,
bravo, because Lucas has the depth to recognize that the Torre has the tendency to eclipse Maestri the man. If you look at some of his other climbs it is possible to see how difficult it might have been for him to confront failure.
I'm not excusing the deception but rather trying to understand it.
|
|
guest
climber
|
|
To Luca and those unsure of whether or not Maestri climbed Cerro Torre (meaning, in 1959; he admitted stopping atop the headwall in 1970)...btw, for those who don't care, this is off-topic. But if you care, and you probably do if you've posted specifically about it, please check this out:
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pdfs/aaj/AAJ_04%20Garibotti-CerroTorre.pdf
It's the single most exhaustive piece ever written about the subject. Many articles suffered from lack of research, due in part to language barriers. The author of the above piece, Rolando Garibotti, is fluent in four or five languages and his article is a thesis on the topic. I, and many others who deal with subjects related to world alpinism (I'm one of the editors of the American Alpine Journal, where the above piece ran in the 2004 edition), consider Garibotti to be, hands-down, the most knowledgeable source of Patagonia climbing history in the world. His above article thoroughly reveals Maestri's numerous self-contradictions, like drawing in three distinctly different lines on different occasions when asked where the 1959 route goes, the dramatic difference in Maestri's descriptions of key terrain features versus those found by other parties attempting the lines, and many, many other things.
Not only is Garibotti incredibly thorough, but he made the first ascent of the north face, with Ermanno Salvaterra and Alessandro Beltrami, in 2005. The trio found not a single sign of Maestri's 1959 attempt above the triangular snowfield, a mere 300m or so up the route. Salvaterra had long believed Maestri, and has now been raked over the coals by some in Italy, even threatened with libel lawsuits from Maestri, for simply stating what evidence they found of Maestri's reported climb: nothing (beyond the above-noted stuff 300m up). Beltrami had gone to Patagonia believing Maestri -- he even works in the same guide's office where Maestri still does some easy trekking guiding. Alessandro, for understandable political reasons (remember, Maestri is an icon over there), kindly deflected my requests for comment about Maestri's 1959 claim (I was working on an article about their climb and what they found/didn't find).
Between the 2005 team and the numerous other attempts, the entire area of Maestri's claimed lines (lines, plural, since he claimed three different lines...) has been scoured. Not a single sign found up high -- Maestri claimed to have placed some 60 or so bolts (even though he claims it was ice climbing up high on the north face rock wall) on the smooth rock above the col, and in the easy terrain down low they left an arsenal of fix gear and remnants of their attempt. Stuff everywhere. Nothing higher, on the truly hard terrain, has ever been found. Nada.
Maestri's story certainly provides a fascinating piece of history, and mythology can be a fun thing to consider. Luca, please understand that I mean no disrespect to you in this. The culture surrounding Maestri, as a hero, in Italy is considerably different than here. By the same token, it might be easier for people without that influence to look at things with a bit more objectivity. This hero-worship thing exists in all cultures -- most certainly here in the U.S., in our athletics, politics, with "celebrities," and many aspects. Every culture has its heroes, and it's an interesting cultural observation when the hero status remains despite being built on a house of cards.
Would anyone believe me if I told you I went to Mars last weekend -- and all I had for proof was my word, despite multiple indications that I, in fact, came nowhere close? Read Garibotti's article (which is a fascinating analysis for those of us dorky enough to be into this stuff) and you'll see how this example proves analagous.
Some might still believe Maestri, beyond all logic or reason, and OK, sure, fine, you can't conclusively disprove Maestri's 1959 claim. Just like you can't disprove my belief that gobblins and hobbits reside on the flanks of Cerro Torre.
--Kelly
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
Not sure if that refers to me.
Just to be clear, while its obvious I admire the guy, I don't think he ever summited the Torre.
|
|
maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
|
|
Well said, Kelly
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
Kelly, thanks for the link and summary. I agree, Garibotti's article is pretty complete and convincing.
Previously my memory of the controversy was from the early 70s, and my recollection was that Maestri remembered very little, being drained by the epic descent and stress of his partner's death. I didn't realize he had provided so many details on their route to the Col of Conquest, and that Fava had supposedly joined them to that point of the route. The timings and comparisons with Bragg-Donini and others who climbed that section are pretty convincing evidence that the descriptions were fabricated.
I suppose his lies about the 1959 route might make some folks see his 1970 route as invalid because he is categorized as not a good guy or something. But he didn't lie about his 1970 route, so it's best to keep the two separate....
I'm tempted to wonder if Maestri believes his own descriptions about the 1959 route, or realizes they are fakes and hopes people will forget about it. Like Garibotti speculates, perhaps Maestri wanted Egger's friends to believe Egger had died a successful hero, so he took a risk in making it up. Too bad, it really created a mess.
|
|
BadInfluence
Mountain climber
Dak side
|
|
Hi Kelly
"Easy to get high-and-mighty, often, I've noticed, with a tone of self-righteousness, about how "me & McGillicutty did something way radder but never felt the need to tell anybody," and that's fine if you want to be like that, but it's ironic to see that very sentiment sprayed in a web forum."
nope you got it wrong. we just sit back and sniker amoung ourselves when you guys claim your FA that's been done already by the unknown.
|
|
Micah Dash
climber
|
|
Rolo's s article is amazing and I encourage everybody who has contributed to this forum to read it. Not only does it address the importance of documenting ascents and attempts, in the greater ranges of the world, but it also illustrates how international the history of Cerro Torre truly is.
Josh and Zack were not the first people to consider chopping the bolts on the Compressor Route. From what I understand, and I may be wrong, Maestri chopped the last pitch himself. It was later re-established by Birdwell.
Josh and Zack are not liars, they told me exactly what happened and why they stopped 30 feet from the summit proper. What has been overlooked is what these guys did climb. From the photos that they showed me they did some pretty awesome climbing up there and established some amazing variations to the existing route. They did not do it for the publicity, it makes me laugh thinking about that, they did for the challenge.
If people choose to not report their ascents that is fine. But sitting back and laughing at them because you and your super bitchin buds already climbed the same line is as elitist as it gets. Don’t worry Bad Influence I’m sure you’re bitchin.
Cerro Torre is not some random piece of rock at your local crag. It is one of the most famous and iconic mountains in the world. A mountain that I hope to some day climb. The line that the Compressor route follows is one of the most natural and logical. Maestri brought the mountain down to his level. Maybe Zack and Josh where merely encouraging people to rise to the level of Cerro Torre. Not to say that climbing the Compressor route in its current state isn’t awesome, but climbing variations that follow natural features is even more of an achievement.
In the end, and I’m speculating here, they didn’t chop the bolts on the lower portion of the route because they didn’t want to take the heat from the greater climbing community and because it would have taken six months. I think it’s understandable.
Micah
|
|
FBOMB
climber
|
|
Hey folks --
Just can't resist dipping my balls in this one.... Funny this is such a controversial topic, because it seems there is a lot we can agree on:
Most can probably agree that the style and motives of Maestri's ascent of the SE ridge did not respect certain aesthetic and environmental values that are more or less universally accepted in the modern alpine climbing community.
Most can probably agree that climbing Cerro Torre without the bolts is a far, far greater achievement.
Most can probably agree that if we could go back in a time machine and prevent the bolts from going in in the first place, that would be a sensible thing to do.
BUT -- Where the argument gets a bit sticky is when folks interpret criticism of Maestri's actions as criticism of all those who choose to repeat his route.
I can't put words into other's mouths, but I don't think the faction that has recently and vocally criticized the excessive bolting of the SE ridge has said anything criticizing those who choose to attempt a repeat of the line and use the bolts. If they did, then they would be criticizing (among others, this is just off the top of my head): Jim Bridwell, Ermanno Salvaterra, Mark Wilford, Mark Richey, Rolando Garibotti, Mark Twight, Steve Gerberding, John Bouchard, Bean Bowers, Dave Nettle, Alan Kearney, Dean Potter, Aaron Martin, Charlie Fowler, Steve Schnieder... Come to think of it, a sizable portion of today's climbing elite has gone a round or two with the Compressor sometime in their career. Why? Maybe, as Bean wrote in the AAJ after he and Dave climbed it five years ago, it's because it is "quite a classic".
So, here we are with a line that everybody agrees probably shouldn't have gone up in the first place, but now that it's there, few can resist having some fun and trying to climb it for themselves. And it is fun... Awful fun.
I guess the only other question is -- should the bolts be chopped? There are good arguments either way on this one, so personally I think it is up to the Argentines to decide. They are the guys who serve you beer, do a lot of the rescues, maintain the trails, tend to the fixed tyroleans, develop lots of cool bouldering and sport climbing around town, and generally make Patagonia such a friendly place to visit. And let's not forget -- its still FREE to climb down there. It's a simple matter of respect. And in this day and age, I believe it's important that we Americans show the rest of the world that we are friendly, respectful people, more important even then showing everyone that we Americans are badass, totally ethically pure 21st century super-alpinists with no tolerance for any hanky panky. Plus, everyone reading this probably considers them self a local somewhere, and you're kidding yourself if you wouldn't get your panties in a bunch if a bunch of Argentines showed up and unannounced tried to re-arrange established routes.
But, as was just proved, this last part is probably a mute point. Until someone as obsessed and committed as Maestri himself comes along, the bolts aren't going anywhere.
Freddie Wilkinson
|
|
BrentA
Gym climber
Roca Rojo
|
|
What a wonderful discussion this has morphed into. Seriously! Icons of rock and men, international intrigue, scandal...and no Britney with a shaved head in sight!
Still mulling over my own thoughts on all of this.
The only trolls and goblins I know may have just been to the Torre, but they live next to Tommy!
I'm still tuned in to this, and enjoying the dialogue.
Brent
|
|
Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
|
|
Werner: Just what will I do with enlightenment?
Just find nirvanna, man.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
wow, kind of a long read, but i am still confused about one little thing:
did these guys go up there with every intention of chopping all the bolts they didn't need, and doing so without telling the multiple parties on or wating for the route that was their intention?
if not, then (like i said) i am just confused by the above thread-
but if so, i would say that's pretty lame and inconsiderate behavior, and that all the above labels like "elitist" and "cowboy" are more than deserved, no matter who their industry pals are or how great they are when they lace 'em up. (edit- and being popular or well liked and being a great individual climber is not a license to take that sort of action unilaterally, in the absence of the input of the community at large /edit)
i'll grant that, hypothetically, if that happened, steve could have handled it better, but riley's earlier post hit the nail on the head in my mind, and who cannot imagine losing it when having a huge and long held dream of your own threatened, one that you have worked and worked and worked for? and particularly by someone that you know, someone who chose to not say anything and just go ahead w/ creating their own "vision"?
like i said above, that's a long and sometimes conflicting thread and i could have this all wrong, but that said, i don't think i am misreading anything above. i'd imagine steve (or any one else) could fly off the handle, but not for no good reason. i don't buy that. daveT said he was "in the middle" of it all, and he even says that he's buddys w/ these guys (and carefully avoids criticizing them), and yet they can't be bothered to tell the folks climbing the route (or planning to) that they were gonna rev up the chopper and dramatically change a historic and established route? as was said above- imagine if you were saving and planning a year (or 3) of your life around that route! (i know i'd say f*#k these guys and their visionary ethics, that they have no business chopping a historic route that is no more theirs than mine, and i can't imagine how pissed i'd be)
he mica-
half dome is a proud mountain too, why do you accept those pitons that roper added on the 2nd ascent of snakedike, in order to make that route more accessable? i know for sure that you and your crowd don't need them, so are they there because they are historic, or because they fascilitate access by the greater community?
what if some "visionary" guys came in and chopped the RNWF, back when you were just about to free it, cause they didn't need bolts (where you did)? and then imagine that route was half way around the world...
would you think that was visionary, or inconsiderate? (or worse?)
and what if some well intentioned euro/ruskie/S-american decided it was his "vision" to return every route on el cap to it's original bolt count? how many of those free routes do you also hope to someday climb? and what would you say if someone else's "vision" prevented it?
editorial- the only thing i can say for sure about chopping or not chopping those bolts is that some badass americans (or anyone else) have no business going up their and doing so w/out seeking the consensus of the community (haven't we learned anything from all the bolt wars?), and that if they were thinking/planning of doing that, they sure as hell should have expected to have pissed some people off, and if they actually went up and tried it, then they weren't all that concerned about whether or not their gear would be tossed in a crevase, or if they would be run out of town when they came back and announced what they'd done.
/rant
disclaimer- like i said, i could just be confused...
|
|
piquaclimber
Trad climber
Durango
|
|
I want to pose a question.
Is using bolts at the belays and for the final 4 pitches really "near boltless"?
Is it a big step forward in terms of style. Obviously yes.
Should we be impressed with their accomplishment... I know I am!
Was it near boltless? I don't know that it fits my definition of that phrase. Maybe I am way off the mark here.
What do others think?
I also want to state that I find Josh and Zack's ascent to be very impressive (excluding the potential bolt chopping component) and that I think Alpinist is the best rag out there these days.
Brad
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Zach and Josh completed the route, which technically ends at the top of the headwall (this is where Maestri's first undisputed ascent of the tower stopped in 1970). They continued toward the summit, soloing the ice mushroom, which formed unusually this year. Josh made the call to turn back 20-30 feet from the summit, as the wind made the final steps too dangerous to attempt. 
Let us know!