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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Oct 11, 2017 - 04:12pm PT
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 11, 2017 - 04:46pm PT
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Mechanical trundling is aid. If you can pull it off manually, fair game. Just make sure the landing zone is clear.
That being said, I have done climbs that depend on questionable holds. It is your call how you treat them.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Oct 11, 2017 - 05:07pm PT
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Yaniro was always ahead of his time.
He was involved in manufacturing climbs
So when Yaniro removes knobs to make rock routes harder he gets praised for doing so? This is weird.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Oct 11, 2017 - 06:20pm PT
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1st of all,
The choss that Ive been climbing, retains it wild nature.
Im kind of a ground up by (hammer and tong) Rock Climber. or I was.
That Iron You guy lugged up to make it go is my romanticized ideal.
I think I was 6 or 7 when I was told of the stove Legs, while sitting in a log cabin looking at a stove, listening to Fritz and Hans,who cleaned some,
but left a ton of loose stuff.
I certainly do not chop holds to make a climb . . . anything
easier, harder, going this way or that, contrived ...
and regularly, just 2 years ago I left a (only100Lbs) see-saw death block on a ledge, 'Stress Test'Climbs toward it.
but I LIVE BY IF YOU DONT NEED TO TOUCH IT - DONT touch it!.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Oct 11, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
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wow, opla, that's looking might big.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Oct 11, 2017 - 10:16pm PT
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oh, and anyone telling me not to chip my own rock in my own backyard, can go suck my left elbow. If it ain't subject to the law of the commons, then tragedy of the commons doesn't apply, just first in time as first in right.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 12, 2017 - 10:09pm PT
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Euro-Chips in Alberta
from Dave Morgan
Dear Mountain,
In the light of recent developments here in Alberta, Canada, your article by Stefan Glowacz (Mountain 121) was timely. We also are at the cutting edge of climbing development. Literally. Not only do we drill bolts on rappel but we drill holds as well. Some of us, that is.
Last year Bruce Howatt climbed Tropicana; at 5.12c it is the hardest route we have. Unfortunately, he found it necessary to create a hold to get by a blank section (which incidentally had already been toproped, though not without a fall, by another aspiring ascensionist). His philosophy seems to be that new routes belong to those who put in the time, not to those who can climb. Widely censured for this behaviour, it was hoped that he had learnt his lesson.
Not so. This spring Howatt, Shep Steiner and Mark Dubé decided that we really need some 5.13s. Can't argue with that. But instead of looking around for suitable rock (and, believe me, we have miles of it up here in the Rockies) they dragged a Honda generator and a drill into our most popular climbing area (Grotto Canyon) and drilled sequences of finger and hand pockets up a 60 feet high overhanging wall. They are now busily trying to free these 'climbs'. They claim that this is how routes are done in France, Smith Rocks and Squamish, and is the way of the future for Alberta.
This has most of us angry but they will neither listen to reason, nor abide by consensus. They deride our Neanderthal ethics. (You see, we believe that if something is too hard we shouldn't bring it down to our level; we should try harder, or longer, or leave it for someone better.) They claim that the wall could never be climbed without drilling, but Gordale graduates could climb over this face at will. Anyway, history has repeatedly shown that the difference between the impossible and a cherished classic is, at most, a few years.
Most of all, though, they complain that they need somewhere to train for France. Howatt, a few 5.12s under his belt and a legend in his own mind, wants to climb The Rose and the Vampire and is willing to jeopardise our sport for his personal ambition.
Already, it is catching on. A local climber of moderate ability has started cleaning a line up a wall between two of our more classic climbs. Unable to do the route, he has refrained from chipping only on advice from friends. It is unclear how long he will heed this advice. What is clear, though, is that without the Howatt-Steiner-Dubé brand of selfish vandalism we wouldn't have the problem of others attempting shortcuts to fame with a chisel instead of with talent and application.
So we're very worried and could use some outside help. There are many beautiful routes to be climbed here, routes that we locals are not yet capable of. It would be a terrible shame for any more of them to fall prey to an incompetent with chisel or drill. How can we impress on our young and ambitious climbers that chipping has no place in climbing, that chipping is cheating?
Dave Morgan
Mountain 123, p49
September/October 1988
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 12, 2017 - 10:21pm PT
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Bolters, Chippers - Believing Their Own Lies?
from Paul Mitchell
Sir,
I tend to agree with Ken Wilson that bolts haven't done much for British climbing. I have placed bolts on a few of my own routes, but find that the exhiliration is almost non-existent when I complete such a route. This is probably because I have made the route too easy for myself. I don't respect tradition in climbing for its own sake, but I can look at history and the ethics of the past, and measure myself against climbers of twenty and thirty years ago. Because I use modern equipment and because I expect to climb 5b and 6c, I don't find it any big deal to climb at these grades, unless of course they are poorly protected. Using bolts has not made me a better climber than climbers of the '50s and '60s. Bolt climbing is essentially about having fun, trying hard and getting pumped in a safe situation, hopefully overhanging. Some people have the materialistic view that because they have spent a lot of time, effort and money to equip a bolt-protected route, they must chip holds to ensure that they can climb the route. It doesn't occur to them to get fitter and climb the route ethically, or to leave the route as impossible and for future or better climbers.
Recently I abandoned a new route I'd been working on in Cheedale, as it had been chipped and ruined by another 'climber'. He knew I'd been working on it. He'd bolted a line which was a direct start to the finish of my intended route. I'd managed all the moves except one, which would have been hard 6c. It is now 6a/b. It is not a matter of who the section of rock 'belongs' to, it is a matter of not chipping holds. Removal of loose rock is sensible on new routes, however the new hold was neatly sculpted out of solid rock to enhance an already existing poor layback. This person had denied himself the opportunity to push himself really hard, and he'd ruined several weeks of effort that I'd put in to hand-drive bolts and work on the route. He doesn't realise that he'll be more respected for climbing ethically. People who chip routes try and kid themselves that people can't detect chipped holds. It is this dishonesty that is the most annoying thing. Some of my own routes are not 100% ethical. It is a fine line between removing loose rock with a few taps of the hammer and prising off stuff that could probably have withstood fifty ascents. I once blatantly chipped a hold on a prospective route at Windy Ledge. I'd removed a loose hold with the hammer to find l'd left a move of 7a, where it had been 6c before, so I chipped a hold to replace the one I'd removed. The next week I returned and smashed off the new hold, returning the route to 7a. I knew that I'd been dishonest with myself. I don't think that people who chip new routes really enjoy them very much, as they can't really believe their own lies.
Yours sincerely,
Paul Mitchell
Sheffield
Mountain 131, p50
January/February 1990
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Oct 12, 2017 - 10:29pm PT
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Chipping is Cheating
from Keith Lockwood
Sir,
Years ago Reinhold Messner said bolt-happy climbers carried their courage in their rucksack. Now, some fools are also carrying their climbing ability in their rucksack, in the form of a hammer and chisel.
It is time people stood up and abused rock chippers for what they are: cheats.
The whole concept of climbing is that a person tries to climb a lump of rock as it stands. It is a challenge. But chiselling and glueing holds onto that lump of rock destroys the inherent challenge of climbing. It chops the rock down to that person's ability in the assumption that:
(a) the route is unclimbable to anyone without cheating; or
(b) the rock, which might otherwise be unclimbable, must have a route up it.
Both suggestions are ludicrous. Firstly, it's a foolish person who says a route or a mountain won't go. Better climbers have proved time and time again that what was regarded as impossible last year is this year's trade route. The unsaid assumption behind chipping is that either the climber has reached the limit of human ability, or he has reached the limit of his own ability and that's as hard as that lump of rock is going to be allowed to be. In other words, a particular climb is not allowed to be harder than, say, 7b. Why not gouge it out a bit more and allow it to be 6b, or perhaps another nick here and a new jug there, and we have a 'classic' 5c manufactured for the masses.
When chalk came in, it was regarded as a tool for the élite to help them push through the barriers. Now, of course, every Tom, Dick and Harry uses the stuff to push through the barriers on Dream of White Horses or Coronation Street. Exactly the same thing will happen with chipping holds and manufacturing routes. Who is going to tell tomorrow's beginner that chipping is just for the hot-shots, and they are not allowed to chip a jug on the crux of Cenotaph Corner or a foothold or two on White Slab?
Second, insisting that a climb must go up each and every piece of rock is the same as Brazil saying: The Amazon rainforest exists, therefore it must be burnt. Mother Nature doesn't stand a chance against human ego, greed and exploitation.
Why are chippers cheats? Because, like Ben Johnson, they load the dice in their favour, they destroy the challenge of climbing, and they murder the impossible.
Let's keep climbing as a challenge of human skill, not as a challenge of mechanical engineering.
Yours sincerely,
Keith Lockwood
Natimuk, Australia
P.S. If anyone vandalises our cliffs - Mt. Arapiles, the Grampians, Mt. Buffalo etc. - we'll rip their bloody arms off.
Yours very sincerely, K.L.
Mountain 132, pp47-48
March/April 1990
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Nov 21, 2017 - 10:14pm PT
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Got a letter from a new climber today. It said...
"I follow [insert new crusher name here] on social media. That guy rocks. He's bad ass. I want to be like him. hmmm, no one really cares if I make perfect edges all the way up El Cap. It will be art work and everyone will have fun on it."
Precedent setting is the back drop against which we discuss. All else is brains in vats with land managers wanting to manage the brains.
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Mar'
Trad climber
Fanta Se
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Nov 29, 2017 - 12:38pm PT
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Manufacturing requires deliberation, ie: thinking.
Being natural does not require deliberation.
Natural is spontaneous so..
That's the benefit of physical Nature to the mechanical human mentality which naturally evolved its Western species-centric industrial age (into its short-lived post industrial age) in terms of the inspiration/philosophical justification for the legislation behind the creation of the National Park System in the United States of America as we know it. Humans conceived of such a thing!
Even diminishing the total acreage of lands set aside for this purpose is not antithetical to the total temporary benefit some humans and some animals derive from nature during their short lifetimes.
[OK, somewhat off-topic]
Nature doesn't guarantee anything; its inherent benefit to humanity being inconceivable terror and wondrous beauty for no reason at all.
Therefore manufacturing is designed to guarantee an outcome; disgustingly outré …what kind of lover would conceive of such an thing(?) No doubt, such a one bereft of terror and wonder~ heehee!!
Then what kind of enlightening human being would conceive of justifying such deliberations?
When I do, it's evidence of selfishness, so I don't dare to share it — especially for name and gain!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 29, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
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anybody need some hangers?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Is this a free-only discussion? Routes like the SoD were heavily "manufactured" on the FA, and a lot of aid routes are. It's hard to argue that the SoD is not a classic big wall climb. The "manufacturing" arguable produced genuine art and a lasting, sustainable route.
Is "the game" different enough in aid/big-wall climbing that the free-climbing considerations are different?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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the potential freeing of an aided FA seems sufficient for a bolt every 36" these days MB. even so much that the ladders see nothing close to topstepping on the FA drill-orgy.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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^^^ LOL
Indeed! High-stepping is right-outta-fashion these days!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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I mean I understand (rare and sparing) pusillanimous bolts and everything but the photo I posted above came complete with unburied excrement and nonbiodegradable wetwipes at the base.
I sure disagree with you sometimes MB, but i may need some pointers on rectifying the above situation. sleeve bolts you just punch in the stud and hopefully then are able to first pull sleeve and second pull stud?
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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We certainly disagree politically, but I sense that we're close to the same page about aid/big-wall stylistic considerations.
I sure don't know the answer! It seems less pressing to me on aid/big-wall climbing, in which "manufacturing" can produce art or excrement, and only subsequent parties can form a consensus about which end of the spectrum the FA achieved.
The thing about free climbing is its supposed commitment to "purity" (which has to mean something like, "conform your BODY to what the rock ORIGINALLY presents," if it means anything). The "spectrum" seems pretty compressed regarding "gray areas" within that claim, particularly on good rock.
But what do I know? My free climbing days are far in the rear-view mirror at this point. Sigh.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Regarding fixing the example "climb," what is the exact nature of the bolts? Did I read you right that they are sleeve anchors?
Edit: Yeah, I re-read, and I think you're right about punch in the stud, pull the sleeve, and then pull the stud. The long-pointed vice grips can work wonders. :-)
If they are lead sleeves (God help us!), it works well to grip the lip of the sleeve with the tip of the vice grips and then gently tap sideways to get some rotation action on the sleeve. Then try to keep rotating as you gently extract. Once you get a bit of lip protruding, you can regrip with the vice grips, and then you've got it.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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thanks for the pointer on the needlenose vicegrips. the sleeves are not leaden but they're those Red Heds that are new but overpliable. Will share results.
and yeah, pretty perfect self exploration to go out alone (for me) and clean some muck (or tackle gnar, in your situation) and strive for good art, to squeak humbly past the bad parts. to come back and free it, or to free it for the most, on the FA. Fun level III.
public land ownership and free dollars make it a wonderful awful free-for-all. I guess I vote not to Peloot, mostly. And certainly not to publish the goods.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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I guess I vote not to Peloot, mostly. And certainly not to publish the goods.
Yeah, or at least not hype the goods. Hehe
I really don't understand the "mentality" that produced the "results" of the climb (and the base of it) you describe.
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