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c wilmot
climber
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That's a lot of assumptions there kingtut.
You are directing a vindictive mindset towards people who have nothing to do with the historical grievances you are upset about
I would like to hear a rational justification as to why you feel discrimination against innocent people is a justifiable means of making amends for historical wrongs of the past
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c wilmot
climber
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But I wouldn't expect anyone living a life of White Privilege to grasp that...
Even more assumptions.. racist assumptions at that
As for the rest of your response- you are citing historical grievances not affecting people today as a reason to discriminate. And every race was subjected to unwanted medical tests...
I still don't see why the race of your doctor matters. Personally I view people who see race as a factor in who they choose as a doctor to be affected by racist thinking.
I just want the best medical care possible
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c wilmot
climber
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You feel a patient has the right to request the race of their doctor?
And you are making yet another assumption in regards to experiencing racism..along with your predictable insults
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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You feel a patient has the right to request the race of their doctor?
How about sex? I've always gone to a female obgyn for my own comfort level. Am I sexist?
My primary is a male and I'm ok with that but his exams aren't as personal.
Susan
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c wilmot
climber
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How about sex? I've always gone to a female obgyn for my own comfort level. Am I sexist?
I don't know. Is a man who feels a male doctor is more qualified to treat them based on their comfort level sexist?
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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^^^. I don't know. Kinda a conundrum, isn't it? The "more qualified" is the issue.
My guess is there are many, many, qualified male Ob Gyns. However given a choice I prefer going to a female. If I had no choice (of gender) I'd select who I thought was the most qualified. If my only choice was a more highly qualified male than a female I'd go with the male. I am pragmatic.
Yet red flags woukd go up if someone said "I'm not comfortable with a black doctor" but be ok of how one might chose the gender of a doctor based on "comfort level".
Good night.
Susan
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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I don't know. Is a man who feels a male doctor is more qualified to treat them based on their comfort level sexist?
Men typically prefer to see male urologists. I don't think it is about "qualification", although a case can be made that they cannot really understand themselves what the male is experiencing.
But it feels like you are trying to pivot to avoid the question.
It is VERY common for people to prefer doctors in their religion. I commonly see this with jews. I also see it with cultures. Armenians in LA have a clear preference for Armenian doctors.
Should not people be able to choose whatever doctor they feel most comfortable with among their choices?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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As a medical ethicist, the history of the field is heavily sprinkled with racist actions against minorities.
If I were in one of those groups, I'm sure I'd feel more comfortable that a doctor who was ALSO in that group would be more sensitive to the issues, and be more likely to protect me from any abuses.
And abuses DO go on, although probably more commonly related to economic state than anything else. Where do you find a poor doctor to treat you?
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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kingtut:
If you had been subjected to racism all your life you might understand why a Black American didn't feel the same way and would be more trusting seeing a Black Doctor. kingtut, are you sure about it?
Are you black?
kingtut:
Currently, Hispanics represent something like 30-35% of the population of California, but the number of new Doctors being trained at all of the Med Schools in the state (that those Hispanics are paying for) are something like 3% of admissions.
This is why a goal of only accepting the most "qualified" based on test scores and GPAs is not suitable for medical schools and other professional schools.
...
It is very real that patients often don't trust their doctors and that is a barrier to healing. Never being able to see a doctor of your ethnicity is a barrier to access. kingtut, are not you mixing up two different issues?
1) Access to better education and jobs that pay more
2) Providing health care to Hispanic communities
Such experiment was already conducted in Soviet Union and then it was further expanded in now independent Middle Eastern countries.
In all these "...stans" people of local ethnicity preferred Russian doctors or Jews because of the perceived differences in their work and study ethics.
In all these "...stans" students of local ethnicity were overrepresented in universities (including medical schools).
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Affirmative Action has helped, it's almost done- quit crying!
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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I'm still trying to come to grips with "Hillbilly Elergy".
Me, too. I wonder how he came to some of his conclusions.
I grew up a hillbilly one generation before his. Hillbillies were different then. They were employed. To him, Reagan was a hero. To me Reagan and his ilk were the ones that brought on the changes that produced the crisis in hillbilly culture he documents. The deindustrialization of America has been a national calamity.
He acknowledges the benefits of the New Deal and Great Society programs, despite some of their flaws. Then he calls Mitch Daniels his political hero, a man who would gut all of those programs given the chance.
He says he's a conservative. He goes on to state how Europe does a better of job of upholding the American Dream than we do, yet doesn't connect that to the fact that those countries are social democracies.
He's from Kentucky, where bitter labor wars were fought to unionize the coal mines, resulting in a better way of life, yet supports the anti-union GOP.
Yeah, I'm still coming to grips with it, too.
Great read, though. My grandma was a pretty hard lady, too, but she never taught me how to punch. Maybe that's a difference between Scotts-Irish protestants and German catholics.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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The big schools--Hahvaahd, Yale, UC Berzerkly, et al. are given WAY too much importance. I read a study some time ago that pointed out that--at most--these schools add 5% to a graduate's earnings. And if you're parents aren't rich, and you don't get massive scholarships? The debt ain't worth it. As mentioned up thread, the end-all-be-all of GPA is kind of a bogus metric, at least after a point. In Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell goes into the skewed admissions process of Harvard and some other schools. He comes to the thoroughly logical conclusion that there is a threshold of performance that should be considered and that students should be selected based on lottery. Now, it IS possible for really bright students to be over placed. Even the best students in poor neighborhoods can have a very tough time if placed in the highest level colleges, which they DON'T need to still be highly successful. A good portrait of such a person is A Hope in the Unseen, which shows the struggles of a bright young black kid from the projects who gets into Brown University. He almost didn't make it through, finding he was way outgunned by a better prepared classmates. How many bright kids get into these schools only to drop out, feel like failures because they're competing against the smartest, richest, best-prepared students on the planet? Imagine if you wanted to become a climber, and everyone around you was a Peter Croft, Lynn Hill, or Dean Potter? You'd feel pretty 'effin' useless when it came to passing the tests!
FWIW, I was in higher ed at the community college level for almost thirty years. The school I retired from was over 40% Hispanic. The number one predictor of success was a willingness to work hard. Some students had it; many did not, but the poor levels of preparation for ALL my students, regardless of race, was the killer for me--and them. The family background and environment is the key: Parents need to stress learning and reading, especially, leading by example. A literate family is a generally successful one, and too few people in my classes and community were readers. Damn, it was depressing at times.
BAd
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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I too read "Hillbilly Elegy." I am a generation removed from a family of hillbillies. I have also read two or three other "saved-by-education" biographies, including "A Hope in the Unseen." They all seem to be the same: it is possible but very hard to escape being poor and ill prepared. It is hard not to look back in wonder, and, apparently, want to write a book. My conclusion is that trying to apply lessons from individual experiences to national politics is a fools errand.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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BAd, nice rant. Spot on. Just back from Olde Blighty. Overhearing the many grade school field trips at the many hysterical, er, historical sites we visited I was strongly struck by the very adult language the children are addressed with. It was also notable how well behaved the little monsters were and how rapt they were listening to the erudite musings of the docents. They got it going on there when it comes to primary edification, at least as far as my penetrating analysis finds. I hear some of their universities ain't BAd neither!
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zBrown
Ice climber
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I read a study some time ago that pointed out that--at most--these schools add 5% to a graduate's earnings.
That's not the only metric.
ALSO, this is an economic trend that started long before trump. Likewise, stock market indices.
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c wilmot
climber
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If only I had realized the black community had chosen kingtut to speak on their behalf
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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C. Wilmot! Re your assertion: Personally I view people who see race as a factor in who they choose as a doctor to be affected by racist thinking.
I just want the best medical care possible
Heidi & I both grew up in small Idaho towns, where 95% plus of the population was white & no-one was black or asian.
Despite that & our current rural Idaho residence, when she had acute appendicitis 10 years back, we went to a Boise emergency room & were assigned a asian-american woman doctor, who was also to remove Heidi's appendix. When the doctor left us alone for a moment, Heidi flashed a big smile at me & exclaimed: "I feel very lucky right now!" We immediately did high-fives, since we knew that doctor was a best-case scenario for us.
I guess that makes us racists in your mind?
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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kingtut:
Unless you were a physician practicing in Kazackhstan and have first hand experience, like I have with black patients, then you may have some credibility. kingtut, I never practiced medicine in Kazakhstan (please pay attention to correct spelling).
However I have quite a few friends in Kyrgyzstan who either practiced medicine or were patients.
kingtut:
And you can spare us any more cute anecdotes from the former Soviet Union that play to Putin's Nationalism, which is based on racism. https://possibilityofchange.com/right-rejection-and-happy-acceptance/
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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As for your "non-politician" POTUS, how's that working out?
Speaking of working, this sonofabitch is going on a seventeen day vacation. Ironic in that he once said he didn't see the point of taking vacations.
Let's face it, he doesn't want to be president, he is just pushing forth an agenda that only a minority of 'muricans want.
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