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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 27, 2017 - 08:18am PT
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I like what one person said about atheism: "Who really knows?"
I don't find atheists smug, but rather, simply firm in their conviction that they have no individual relationship with any form of a priori Creator. Other than that, they appear normal and able to function reasonably well. Who am I to argue over G*d beliefs with a peaceful person living their life?
ff
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 27, 2017 - 08:27am PT
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^^^Well put.
"Who really knows?" = agnosticism
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 27, 2017 - 08:38am PT
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"Atheism is just the religion of Smugness wrapped in a cloak of condescendion." -Reilly
I'm with Reilly in the sense that a lot of atheists like to bludgeon - I mean proselytize- people with their religion.
This sounds canned to me. Can you name a couple? Any?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 27, 2017 - 08:40am PT
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If no one knows, then no one should have faith in their own personal religion
because you just can't know if it's true or not!
so you might as well give up on searching, because you can never know!
Sorry
I find the whole not knowing anything as a cop out
something's you can know, and something's may not be known, that is what's true.
One thing we do know, we know the things that Man Creates, and he created religions and his Gods
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 27, 2017 - 08:41am PT
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Can you name a couple? Any?
Or, if you prefer not to personalize...
what is this "blungeoning" or "proselytizing" with their own "religion" you speak of?
...
I had the opportunity to watch "Whatever Works" (2009) with Larry David and Evan Rachel Wood last night. Besides a lot else, this movie does a great job showing how much we as a species and civilization have changed in just 100 years (a mere four generations). I think it's probably got a dozen salient points (re: science, belief, religion, history, future, morbidity and mortality, etc.) that tie nicely into this thread. Hugely entertaining, too.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1178663/?ref_=nv_sr_1
"And don't kid yourself. Because it's by no means up to your own human ingenuity. A bigger part of your existence is luck, than you'd like to admit. Christ, you know the odds of your father's one sperm from the billions, finding the single egg that made you." -Boris
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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May 27, 2017 - 08:42am PT
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There was this evangelical type who lived across the street and was always blasting the Jesus rock from his garage. One evening I heard some shouting and I went out to my front yard to see what was the commotion. The guy was yelling at his wife as she sat behind the wheel of their car in the driveway with the two kids in the back seat. Every time she tried to shut the car door he would reach in and slap her. I yelled "Hey!" and he turned to look at me, drunk eyed and swaggering.
I was seriously ready to walk over there and clock him, and was pretty sure the five of us could take him...
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John M
climber
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May 27, 2017 - 08:49am PT
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This sounds canned to me. Can you name a couple? Any?
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2515755/The-New-Religion-Vs-Science-Thread
whenever I mention god, locker says its a fairy tale. Perhaps thats not prosletyzing and more along the lines of brow beating, but it is fairly constant. Don't believe that.. don't believe that.. which is primarily what atheism is, the religion of don't believe. So in one sense a form of prosletyzing. And don't get me wrong, I like locker, but he does tend to drive nails.
Then of course there is your thread. heh heh..
.........
religion is not god. religion is mans attempt to codify his beliefs about god.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 27, 2017 - 09:14am PT
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John, have you seen Whatever Works?
"and with it all the day still comes where they put you in a box, and it's on to the next generation of idiots, who'll also tell you all about life and define for you what's appropriate." -Boris
It's got something for everybody.
"That's not what I'm saying, imbecile. You guys completely misrepresent my ideas, why would I even want to talk with those idiots." -Boris
:)
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 27, 2017 - 09:24am PT
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"By their fruits ye shall know them."
Matthew 7:15-20
Proselytizing - no matter who's doing it - doesn't do much for me. I watch closely the ones who don't say that much and make cool stuff happen for others.
Craig, when you talk about those things that can't be proven you can't know that they're true. To claim TRUTH without proof is hubris and leads to violence of all kinds.
To live in the world of science is to know that we have models that approximate the truth and that what we know today may be different tomorrow in the lightof better evidence. That pursuit in it's purest form is humble even though utilization of the knowledge that comes from science is often anything but humble and scientists are often the worst offenders of all.
Faith is a cool thing AND faith is not proof. Believing that faith is proof is intellectually dishonest and hubris AND it undermines the beauty of faith - devotion.
"Both the man of science and the man of action live always at the edge of mystery, surrounded by it."
~ Robert Oppenheimer
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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May 27, 2017 - 09:44am PT
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My Liberation
How many here who grew up in the protestant church felt a kind of Stockholm Syndrome relationship with god and the church like I did.?
When I began to question faith the answers were designed to guilt or frighten me back into line, or at worse, shame me for not being a good sheep like the rest of the family. I hated that god might punish me for all eternity if I sinned but I loved the 'kind forgiving Jesus' simultaneously. When I realized the hell I was in I began rebelling subconsciously at first, then by the age of thirteen I began running away from home, only to return when all other avenues were exhausted.
This continued through high school as my preacher dad and teacher mom left the church and divorced. My illusion about god, the sanctity of family, and all authority were shattered as I read about many other philosophies and religions. I tried almost every drug until alcohol became my oppressor. Years later, with wife and kids still intact, I made it into a recovery program and had to adjust their doctrine to fit with my agnosticism. After 20 years I quit listening to the 'god talk' and never looked back. It was useful, but not right for every one. I'm still clean and sober nearing 28 years.
I never really rectified myself with agnosticism or spirituality, instead I enjoyed reading about science and history. Still I found myself in long philosophical arguments with people where I would cite the evils of religion and the sufferings it had caused. Several years ago, at the behest of a friend I read the book God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, by Christopher Hitchens.
Suddenly everything clicked, a kind of light bulb turned on in my head, and I saw the logic of the writer's thinking. It was exhilarating. I have never needed to have a soul, or a hereafter, or to be owned by a superhuman being. I've always felt comfortable being alone or with company in the nighttime under the stars. Trying to understand physics and science and the mystery of the stargazer's perspective have overtaken me. I am home.
-bushman
05/27/2017
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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May 27, 2017 - 11:15am PT
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I was seriously ready to walk over there and clock him, and was pretty sure the five of us could take him...
Sycorax,
Thank you for your analogy of a fictional story intended to be humorous. The material is more personal than you know but the anecdote was based on an old joke I heard, "the five of us could take him," being the punchline. But then I assume you knew that.
You are absolutely correct that I didn't see the hypocrisy of an ex drunk deriding a drunk, but a wife beater I have never been. Perhaps the story, as a joke, was in poor taste here.
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c wilmot
climber
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May 27, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
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The pope is brainwashed with biblical nonsense. Evolution and the the Big Bang are just more proof of god.
"God" in my opinion is not a representation of the work or words of man. God is everything around us and in every living entity on earth.
If anything religions are just a manifestation of the ego of man
Which is why religions cause problems- as every religion insists its "god" and its interpretation of what god is- is an absolute.
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c wilmot
climber
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May 27, 2017 - 01:01pm PT
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May 27, 2017 - 12:56pm PT
"Yer GONNA die!!!"...
EDITED:
Then, rot...
For sure...unless I am cremated. Personally I would prefer to be dragged into a remote field or forest where animals and insects could feast upon my body and "deposit" me back to the land as useful organic matter. Just as nature intended. Sadly though humans subvert the natural order of things. We feel we are above the cycle of life
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 27, 2017 - 04:13pm PT
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I do not know if there is God or not
I base my religion on the belief that there is no God
there is no "maybe a God exists, maybe not" for me
it makes sense that any kind of consciousness or spirit needs a brain
does it not
that
no physical brain = no mind, no spirit, no god, no complex thoughts or something more
Show me something that is above the Human mind in complex thought, there is nothing
The only good thing about becoming an atheist is that almost every question about religions, gods, profits, how God did this or that is answered (because they can never be answered by the religions, you are asked to have faith it's true) suddenly reality makes total sense, nature makes sense, deep time makes sense,
and the silly gods don't fit in the picture at any level nor do they make sense
Once you are free of gods, you are personally free in many ways you could never have imagined.
BUT
But But
I would change my belief system in an instant if some kind of irrefutable evidence came forward that proved me wrong
I am completely open to any scientific explanation that proves God does exist
That was my early reason for posting on religion, hoping someone can convince me I'm wrong, show me the evidence...
still waiting
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WBraun
climber
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May 27, 2017 - 04:22pm PT
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God has the Supreme mind, consciousness and brain.
His body is fully spiritual.
Not like Fry's material fried brain.
God has personality and is not impersonal.
God has been proven scientifically for zillions of years.
More years than any stoopid computer can hold.
Not like stoopid modern science which guesses and makes no experiment.
Modern science just plain blabs "there is no God".
Modern science just useless blathering with no proof.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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May 27, 2017 - 04:36pm PT
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"Weren't you a drunk once too? So you didn't "cast the first stone" but you failed to recognize your reflection. The guy had bad taste in music. End of story.'
Not end of story...scumbag was/is a wife beater.
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divad
Trad climber
wmass
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May 27, 2017 - 04:39pm PT
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Modern science just useless blathering with no proof.
and the difference between that and what you spout is?...
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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May 27, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
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maybe you can elaborate on this
God has personality and is not impersonal. I really want to know how this works
If anyone can answer any of my questions about God, I would have so many questions,
and we all know that none will be answered to any acceptable level, because they do not have an answer
the only answer for the questions is that their God has no answers
No questions can or will be answered, that is their response.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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May 27, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
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Not being specific here but, when a thread degenerates into baseless personal attacks I'm out.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 27, 2017 - 06:36pm PT
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Bushman: Perhaps the story, as a joke, was in poor taste here.
Are you kidding?
Everything is in poor taste here.
EDIT: Watch what comes next.
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