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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Dec 18, 2006 - 01:26pm PT
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Monday 10:17 am
Updated: 8 minutes ago
HOOD RIVER, Ore. - Two climbers missing on Mount Hood may have fallen on a steep slope on their way down Oregon’s highest mountain, the Hood River County sheriff said Monday as a team prepared to retrieve the body of a third climber found dead in a snow cave.
Air crews will continue to survey the area because avalanche conditions make it unsafe for ground crews to head through a treacherous side of the mountain known as “the gullies,” where climbers have fallen in the past, said Sheriff Joe Wampler.
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inhisfootsteps
Sport climber
the
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Dec 18, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
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There is no reason to give up hope.
As far as I have heard, they are very capable climbers. Why is everyone using "were, was" past tense stuff. They are good climbers and they still have a possibility of making it out. (im sorry- please dont be offended but emotions are crazy right now)
thoughts are with the family and friends.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Dec 18, 2006 - 01:40pm PT
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yes,
if they didn't have an accident or get swept in an avalnche then there is very good chance they are snuggeling in a snow cave together.
time to come out fellas!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 18, 2006 - 02:23pm PT
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I'm not pointing fingers. I'm not laying blame. I still have some hope for the two remaining climbers. Things happen. We are human and mistakes are made.
However, every accident in the climbing community is a learning experience and wake-up call. I used to believe, you should be totally independent, cut-off from all civilization to really enjoy the adventure and the experience to its fullest. I don't think that anymore. I still believe in self-reliance and experience and if it can be done safely, self rescue.
I still want to have fun and adventure, but I now have a wife and kids, not to mention my extended family and friends whom I love and care about. I don't want to worry anyone unnecessarily. I try to always leave a plan of what I'm doing. If things change I call to let my wife know. I always try to carry my small Garmin GPS with fresh batteries. I always try to bring my freshly charged-up cell phone and my freshly charged-up Globalstar Satellite phone. I use my cell phone when I can and leave my Satellite phone fully charged for back-up or when I can't get contact via cell phone. The mass of all of this is minimal. I don't talk long just enough to let them know what the plan is and exactly where I am, and that I love them, and then get off the air. Even with all this it isn't fail safe, but it certainly is a lot better than going without it. I came to all of this technology because of my paragliding and that is how we do it, but now I even carry it hiking, climbing, and BC skiing.
Even under these conditions on Mt. Hood, with these kinds of equipment I described (I know they had the cell phone which was brilliant on their part), they could have gotten the word out further and stayed in better contact and made it known what exactly was going on and where they are exactly.
I will continue to use the technology we have available to keep my loved ones from worrying and not knowing what is going on. Being a member of the AAC and having the rescue insurance is also very wise. I just pray I never have to use it.
My hope and prayer is that the two remaining climbers are found alive.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Dec 18, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
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These guys obviously got caught in a storm that is not a typical storm for the area. Any unforseen circumstances become much more serious in such a storm.
Not to digress, but, re: taking all of the technology into the backcountry that was referenced upthread. I took a Globalstar sat phone into the Alaska Range last season thinking I might have to arrange a pickup from the air service if the Ruth Glacier started to deteriorate to the point where a pickup would not be possible. (This was in July.) I also thought I would give my wife a call or two during the three week period I was there to reassure her. The darn thing did not work. Result: I had a wife more worried than she otherwise would have because she did not get the expected call.
I feel that we give up something when we carry all of these things into the backcountry. I know there can be a lot of sense in doing so, but on balance, I'm not sure it is worth it. I probably won't take a sat. phone again.
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darod
Trad climber
South Side Billburg
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Dec 18, 2006 - 03:19pm PT
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Klimmer says:
"...I will continue to use the technology we have available to keep my loved ones from worrying and not knowing what is going on. Being a member of the AAC and having the rescue insurance is also very wise. I just pray I never have to use it..."
What would all that technology do for you, if in the event of a storm like the one that hit these guys, nobody can come to your help anyway? You're fooling yourself creating a false sense of security if you think that the phone is gonna help you IN A CASE LIKE THIS.
Cheers, and my best to the families of these guys.
darod.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 18, 2006 - 03:34pm PT
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Yes, Globalstar doesn't work so well the closer you get to the polar regions, and they say so. Iridium or some other more dedicated ones with better coverage do. Globalstar is good for much of the world though. Investigate before you buy or rent.
About the storm. Maybe it doesn't usually come on as strong as it did, but I lived in Oregon and Washington in 1980 - 1982 (I'll never forget May 18th, 1980, got to see St. Helens blow after a day of climbing on Beacon Rock in the Columbia Gorge --- wow!). And damn if it doesn't storm there often. Bad weather is typical for the Cascades, that is why NW climbers are so damn good in fowl weather, whereas So Cal climbers are tucking tail usually. It changed my perspective. You can do a lot in inclement weather. This past storm on Hood was REALLY inclement. Bottom line the technology would have helped. The only way SAR really knew where to start looking is from the ping location from the cell phone call that was made.
Again, I hope for two remaining climbers to be found alive.
Edit:
In response to the above. It is called letting people know what is going on regardless if they can come for you or not. The moment the weather breaks an immediate rescue can be attempted to the exact location without stall and having to search. Also if the sh#t is going to hit the fan, and death is nearby, it is good to let people know your last words. Didn't someone on Everest leave Earth this way? He had the opportunity to let his wife and loved ones know and to hear his last words.
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Dec 18, 2006 - 03:51pm PT
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Winds clocked at 140 mph last week on the hill...it was very grim indeed.
We all hoped for better news.
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mthoodrescuehope
Social climber
nyc,ny
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Dec 18, 2006 - 04:00pm PT
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there have been many comments made about technology.
my immediate response to the cnn coverstory was a question to myself, "are these guys caring a garmin (atleast one?)"
then i thought to myself, not everyone is as "tech" savvy as I am. furthermore, not every climber has a large "navigation" system budget. but to me the following analogy makes sense: life jacket is to boat, as gps is to mountain (mt hood.)
i am not in the business of sales, but garmin's rino is particulary apt for such a situation in which position reporting is necessary: reciver & tranmitter (in one).
realistically speaking: yes, i beleive that i "would have" assessed the danger of mt hood trails, given their reputation, and packed a GPS myself. Hoping not to have to use it.
however, i personally cannot blame or fault anyone who doesn't carry one.
the contrary view seems to be that no individual can fully prepare/hedge for the unknown. ok, sure i accept that.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Dec 18, 2006 - 04:01pm PT
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A G-D media circus. Those vultures do nothing to help, and sop up the emotions with a biscuit.
And the Sheriff should make an effort not to smile so much, and seem so happy to be on TV.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Dec 18, 2006 - 04:23pm PT
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Klimmer,
I did do my research on Globalstar, and the reason that it did not work had nothing to do with being close to a Pole. It had to do with a coding mistake that Globalstar made. (They did not charge me a fee, even though I had the phone for one month, because of their mistake.)
But you're missing the point. It does not sound like the cell phone helped these poor lads in this situation. Don't assume that it would help save your bacon if you were in a similar situation. In addition to creating a false sense of security, this technology also makes calling for a rescue way too easy.
Additionally, part of the experience of being out in the woods is lost when you're tied to the rest of humanity with all of these gadgets.
I'm not denying the convenience of such gadgets. I just question whether it's worth it.
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cleo
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Dec 18, 2006 - 04:31pm PT
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Um - with all due respect, mthoodres...
GPS is really not like life jacket is to boat on a mtn like hood... maybe in a wilderness travel situation covering great distances but...
1 - they can work poorly in bad weather. they also work poorly in steep terrain (gullies, near cliffs, etc). better to have a good map & compass and other orienteering skills developed w/ experience.
2 - the dangers are usually more near than far, especially in situations of poor visibility. GPS can't tell you the best way down, or whether or not there is a cliff nearby, or should you start down or up this chute or the one 50 ft to the right.
... it isn't even reliable to 100 ft of elevation (the small-off-the-shelf units, not the $30K bulky backpack ones), and elevation is one of the better ways to orient yourself on a big mtn (note: many climbers do carry altimeters/barometers!)
I'd say that bivy sack/sleeping bag is a better analogy to life jacket. You can hunker down for a while, and you can swim in the ocean for a while, but eventually, you're going to starve or freeze with both if you don't find dry land!
And... I don't think these climbers were ever "lost" (i.e. I think had they been able to contact rescue in any manner, they probably could've conveyed their location very accurately w/o GPS).
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Apocalypsenow
Trad climber
Cali
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Dec 18, 2006 - 05:20pm PT
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What did the note say that they left on their car?
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area
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Dec 18, 2006 - 05:31pm PT
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Climbers did not have all these hi-tech gears 30 years ago yet they survived the bloody storms on k2 .The problem I see is this new fast/light/no gear single push mountain assault and climbers are getting the habit of doing it.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 18, 2006 - 05:33pm PT
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Naturally we are inclined to try and figure out how we ourselves might have survived. The how, though, is very dependent upon conditions. Above 70 mph winds make walking or standing problematic. Heavy mittens and a face mask or better a face tunnel will be needed to function and avoid instantaneous frostbite. Even with them you will have to have your back to the wind. Vision will be limited to less than three feet in any direction. Under these conditions if you have strapped your compass to you it is possible to take a bearing. Very difficult but possible. Two caveats. You have to have memorized your heading beforehand and you have to know where you are. If the summit is a simple regular cone you may be able to locate yourself by just going uphill. With visibility limited to 36” even this may not work. Coming off a summit once, under conditions not nearly this bad, I succeeded thanks to luck. Not sure where I was I put my face down close to a rock and could see graphitti. No one would leave graphitti well away from a summit so I knew I was close.
The topic that could be discussed very usefully is the question of action versus inaction. When people who prefer action are pinned in a position, lasting they know not how long, they are inclined to trade a bad position for a worse one. The people here could give us the benefit of their experiences and how they successfully made the tradeoffs. Doing this would be most instructive.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Dec 18, 2006 - 05:37pm PT
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The problem here is a big ass storm, and a trio of guys who got stuck in it. All the technology on earth cannot help when guys get isolated and cut off, trapped and the fule runs out. If anyone survived as of now it would rank as one of the greatest survival stories of all time--which is exactly what we´re all hoping for.
Positive thoughts going out to all involved.
JL
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Staples10
climber
Jeffrey City, WY
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Dec 18, 2006 - 05:41pm PT
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A few thoughts:
While the media has reported that these climbers were "experienced", I'm not sure anyone knows how that's defined in this case. It could mean anything from first ascents in Patagonia to hiking up Colorado's 14-ers.
Technology can help, no question, but I would suggest that sometimes it provides a false sense of security and negatively affects judgment. I'm not sure that a sat phone, in this case, would be preferable to extra fuel, or a map and compass.
It's growing less likely that we'll ever know the full story, but the decision by the two climbers to leave the safety of the snow cave and attempt a technical descent in poor conditions is baffling. I'm reminded of a similar situation where two climbers were caught on Liberty Ridge in a terrible storm. They dug in and waited, also pulling a father/son team out of the storm. They ended up staying the snow cave for a week, waiting for the storm to end and the avalanche danger to subside, and talking the father/son team into staying put. An NPS chopper found them when the weather cleared, dropped food/fuel, and all four climbers were able to walk off. No cell phones, no beacons. Just good judgment. The two climbers were Mahoney/Gilmore.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 18, 2006 - 05:54pm PT
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Bottom line, the arguements for carrying a cell phone, GPS, and a Sat. phone are far better, and numerous, than the arguements against carry these kinds of technologies. I never use-to carry any of these. But within the paragliding community we use all of these tools continiously, plus HAM radios (I'm licensed), and it has convinced me in all my other outdoor adventure activities to carry them then also.
These are not first response tools, proper planning, and proper judgement, and self-reliance are first by all means. But, when the sh#t hits the fan these are life savers.
Ask SAR if they would prefer that outdoor activists carry these technologies, in addition to having experience, wisdom, good judgement, and self-reliance. These technologies save lives all around. If I were a SAR personnel, I would much rather have to go find someone where I knew exactly where they are and what condition they are in, so when the weather breaks and allows a quick rescue we are in there in a flash, than to go look for "Needles in a Hay Stack" . . .
I can just hear them saying now, "We know they are up there, but who knows where? Boy, sure wish we had an exact coordinate for their location and we were in contact with them so we knew how they are holding out and doing. I sure wish we knew. Even if it was their very last transmission, at least we would know exactly where to look for them . . ."
Edit:
Also when things are dire and judgement can start to lapse, another sane voice on the other end of the line can talk someone out of doing something further that might worsen their situation. I was watching a TV program just yesterday on climbing Everest, after watching the MT. Hood rescue efforts, and the fiasco that has ensued on Everest is amazing. But, a client on the mountain most likely had his life saved when the team captain at a lower camp demanded that the climber turn around or he will not have enough oxygen for the the descent. The climber was stubborn. He argued and tried to reason with the team captain time and time again, and I believe he finally listened, and did turn around. But it was technology that allowed reason to overcome the poor judgement of this climber. And he was close to the summit, maybe 300' in altitude, but he was climbing very slow. It just wasn't possible if he wanted to live.
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pissed
Trad climber
Lake Placid NY
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Dec 18, 2006 - 06:38pm PT
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I have been to Mt Hood for ten years and have some experience on the hill. I don't want to ask over at cascade because I'm not a member. From the Palmer, the fall line is toward zig zag right? I have been there in whiteout and thought I was going toward timberline but ended up way off - luckily no serious events ensued. What are the chanches they made is past Pearly Gates and ended up going with the fall line toward zig zag?
Is it possible the authorities are lying? This does not seem to add up to me - both caves were supposed to be on the north face then sheriff says at the latest conference that one was on south face... Not to start spray or drift the thread, just wondering what you all think.
Thank you
My thought are out to all those involved.
My thoughts are also with every climber who had an incident this year - it was a bad year for us.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 18, 2006 - 06:55pm PT
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Why would you think the authorities are lying? What would be there motivation. I can see withholding info but not outright lying.
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