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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Guys, let's be real.
Iran is building a nuclear bomb, because nuclear weapons is the only insurance policy against US agression (a.k.a "peacekeeping operation" or "bringing a democracy").
Any contry that wants to preserve their freedom must have one.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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If the U.S. is being aggressive toward Iran, we sure have a strange way of expressing it.
We gave them Iraq - after killing their Public Enemy #1 - as well as the rest of the Middle East. Then we paid them $100,000,000,000 for their troubles.
I don't know how much more of this American aggression Iran will be able to take.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Then we paid them $100,000,000,000 for their troubles.
Complete BS
please provide a VALID link
we released their $100 billion, we didn't give them a cent in the Iran deal.
No wonder you guys hate the deal so much, because the right wing media liars filled your head with hateful lies.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Let's bring a democracy down on their asses
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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It's not much of a democracy when the people elected don't run the government, and those who run the government aren't elected.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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The Iran deal only dealt with their ability to manufacture Nukes
So to say the deal was bogus because they are doing other things outside of manufacturing Nukes that you don't like is just plain stupid.
And saying the deal gives them the nuke is even stupider, it just shows that you are a complete idiotic Dupe
How are they going to get a nuke without the raw materials and without violating the Treaty.
The same people that sold us on Iraq having WMD are now lying about the Iran deal.
They are chicken hawks that make money on war.
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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2016 - 08:43am PT
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ecdh said: "ive worked in and with Iran for 17 years, across various projects, 3 presidents and from before the hubbub of what became the current standpoint towards islam (and all that comes with it).
i was there when 9/11 happened and have been to all its borders, and live in a country with a very odd stance on the place. i go there to climb and work. anyway, Irans is easily the most misunderstood significant player on the world stage. we have a better angle of N korea.
iran and 'eye-ran' are not the same places. but we all know that. what almost always escapes attention is the US's real relation with iran - its actually surprisingly good. whilst the media gets all flustered and the banks acts as terror groups, remarkable things go on - both good and maybe-less-so - that are either denied coverage or distorted in reporting.
watch and see. "
Interesting post. You clearly must know a hell of a lot more than the rest of us combined. Care to elaborate?
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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It's not complex to understand if you don't view the world through, ancient fear based religions.
Do a little research into the kibbutz movement at the end of the Ottoman empire, the post WW-2 formation of the Jewish state, the emergence of a petroleum based world economy, aggressive Zionists Settlement policies in the wake of the 6 day war, the ingrained hatred of Jews by many Muslims, the need of a regional Pitt bull by the US, the unholy alliance between capitalist-neoconservatives and hardliner Zionists, and finally the grab-hold-stall- repopulate, apartheid strategy by a so called, "Democratic" country.
I applaud the efforts to lay a foundation of understanding with an emerging, young, educated, population in Iran. The Revolutionary Guard is growing old.
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perswig
climber
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The Revolutionary Guard is growing old.
As is our own. Leading near-time to more extreme measures to preserve status quo in both places.
The parallels are a bit unsettling.
Dale
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Dr. F was correct
The $100 billion of frozen assets were released back to Iran
not a cent of it was ours.
I wonder why Chaz didn't bother responding?
Let's ask another question
Chaz, how much did we pay Iran for their troubles?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dr F is playing with semantics, as usual.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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good grief
calling it semantics is a way of getting out of saying that they were WRONG
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Tom Patterson
Trad climber
Seattle
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Just a couple of thoughts:
1. The U.S.--the only country in history to use nukes against another nation--is in a rather ironic place to be the moral watchdog for any other nation re: nukes, and;
2. The U.S.'s history in and with Iran hardly lends itself to making any moral statements about their actions, or alleged actions.
Now...I have to get back to being a brand new grandparent, and hope that the world we leave our descendants is a better one than we've so royally screwed up.
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WBraun
climber
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The U.S.--the only country in history to use nukes against another nation
Not true.
Tactical nukes are being used by Israel .....
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couchmaster
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - May 8, 2016 - 06:05pm PT
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Werner, you sh#t on Israel all too often for my taste. Let see some reality based facts supported by actual evidence. Put up some links for examination and general humiliation;-) that support your crazy claims or admit you are wrong.
"The U.S.--the only country in history to use nukes against another nation. Not true. Tactical nukes are being used by Israel ..... "
As an aside, I knew a guy who claimed to have first hand knowledge that we (the US) had deployed backpack sized nukes in Vietnam . Not that we fired them off, but that they were there and inplaced. He gave me pretty detailed info about it.
Per Werner: "Tactical nukes are being used by Israel ..... "
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Tom Patterson
Trad climber
Seattle
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"Tactical nukes are being used by Israel ....."
Werner, I'm not a fan of a lot of what Israel's been doing, but where do you get this statement?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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I wanted to say something like
but then remembered that the thread just got plastered with more seagull sh#t
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ecdh
climber
the east
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care to elaborate?
gladly - but be warned: this is my personal can of worms and you may be sorry you asked.
caveat; its what i think after a career dealing with the place AND living in other places that get a different view on the matter (namely china, japan, central asia).
nukes: of course iran has them on the table. look at the neighbours! with most other avenues of self-defense squeezed off a sabre to rattle is all they got. you think you worry about the taliban/wahabists/saddam/russia/pakistan etc - trying having all of them next door then almost all other forms of countering them limited (ie diplomatic, economic, strategic platforms).
remember - iran has no safety net. unlike israel, n korea, saudi etc they dont have a big brother to run to if this go bad.
dont forget too - iran has a significant hi tech industry that includes nuclear medicine. they also acknowledge their position with reliance on hydrocarbons and that if targeted the striking party will nail their oil first. also, oil is the primary political/religious fulcrum in iran (privatizing it etc) so having another option makes sense.
they have reasons for nuclear industry besides secret bombs.
still. its better they dont go down that road, tho the process has been rigged from both sides.
democracy: regionally they have about the best system going. even turkey has a 'democracy' thats barely functional any more.
i worked directly with this process a bit and the secular element is proper democracy - better than the systems most western nations claim.
the ayatollah stuff is a problem, but note they are still elected from a fairly large base and have to use protocols too. its not a true theocracy.
note too the power in the ayatollah is diminishing fast. theyre only onto their second one and already the position is a pale shadow. the probable next ayatollah looks pretty cool and expect a big defreeze.
not that in the entire region from the pacific to the Mediterranean its one of the few places NOT to pass on leadership thru nepotism. even the ayatollah is subject to strict process.
the great satan: the US hates iran more than iran hates the US. inside the country theres very little anti-US propaganda. most iranians aspire to a middle class lifestyle very similar. they too love cars, gasoline, getting fat and cheesy sit-coms.
what animosity exists is usually centered around they way US popular policy messes with irans interests and security. on one hand the US competes, on the other it plays for the other team altogether.
the big seceret (and you heard it here folks) is at the highest level iran and the US maintain a functional friendship. looking back, both sides have usually worked together when it mattered (with exceptions). indeed the US has better relations with iran than many other places it decalres its 'friends'.
from the iran/iraq war thru the fall of the USSR the japanese bubble the taliban, saudi prominence, the tajik civil war, al qaeda, pakistan, the opening of central asia and now syria - theres a long history of parallel agendas.
where things come unhinged is the peripheral militia stuff like hezbollah, competition over china, azerbaijan, oman etc and strategic factors like the caspian and straights of hormuz.
sanctions/cash etc: for a place with a trashed economy after 30 years sanctions they do ok as they connect well to other places (china, till recently japan, central asia etc). with a strong middle class and emphasis on education they stay afloat where others dont.
the released cash goes both ways - most of its theirs and they know whay it was frozen - BUT a lot of its also from dubious avenues that dont make the worlds securtiy systems look healthy.
note sanctions never were like the ones on already crippled nations like N korea, iraq etc - iran always would keep rolling forward and places like china didnt abide much by them anyway (another problem for later).
with the cash flowing again iran will restart very fast and change the map. the big blank between china and europe will fill fast and the US popular population sitting it out is a big mistake - get in there.
terrorism: murky. if you start by removing forms of terrorism that the US also indulges in (supporting nasty proxy groups etc) theres not much iran really is engaged in OTHER THAN their own war to stop it.
note that almost everyone the US ends up fighting iran fights a decade before, then gets dumped with it again once the US is done.
on the ground, iran is about as terror-free as it gets. incidents within the country are very rare - tho they are pretty heavy about dealing with anything that even looks in that direction.
israel: iran is offically anti-zionist, not anti-jewish. they actually have good relations with judaism when its divorced from a zionist agenda.
other shit: iran is not paradise but they do ok considering whats on their plate. culturally they are very tolerant and even with some heavy islamic bullshit they find honorable ways around it usually (but not always). a good example is homosexuality - they see gay as being distinct for men f*#king other men. guys can have sex with other guys if they just dont call it gay, ie have a 'regular' lifestyle along with it.
in some ways they are ahead of the game. their human rights are not great - but then they also have the worlds largest refugee population and almost zero international assistance for it. same for the drug trafficking problem.
education is pretty good, womens rights are varied between limited by religion to complete freedom - its not pakistan or saudi with blanketly stupid laws.
what else..?
the foods great, the waters drinkable, its cheap, the climbings awesome and theres little crime.
in fact, some well known iranian climbers and i are pulling together a 'freedom climbers' ice/alpine/wall trip there in early 2017 if anyone wants to join and get off the sofa on the matter.
we can spray about all this or actually go and be part of the change.
edit the sanctions bit.
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WBraun
climber
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The tactical nuke news has been around for years and even mainstream media reported it although those reports got scrubbed fast to keep you loons in the dark.
You Americans are all the same .... brainwashed into stupid!
Except guys like above (ecdh) .....
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ecdh
climber
the east
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no perspective can offer objectivity - thats 101 of working in any international capacity. best can be done is to have a variety of perspectives from across a spectrum of interests, then collate them as quantitatively as possible (ie matching up stats and data with observation). that is how the positions are filled.
like all things; a days experience is worth more than a lifetimes assumptions.
tho i like iran, i dont claim to be an expert (its a massive field of study). but i do know its not black and white. ive also seen the manipulated media portrayal and even at my basic level its clear what the disparity is.
an open climbers forum isnt the place to get into serious data, but there are multiple platforms for the 'bonafides' you seek if you want them. or let me know what you want to hear.
or better yet - go there.
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