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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 01:48pm PT
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Ronbo: "Unlike some, I don't usually feel the need to alter other people's work."
Does this statement leave you an "OUT" in case you chose to in the past?
On that note, Ron, have you ventured on "Cosmic Trauma"? And if so, you then would know that "Constructive Scarring" had occured on the move/moves in question and were in place back in '95.
Thus, this whole point is moot as Ammon did not freshly place a "BOO", rather utilized a current scar and made no fresh "Destructive" scar as Chris would have done a respectable and delicate job "Cleaning" the placed pin. Is this not a respectable and authorized avenue? Semantics boys!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:08pm PT
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"boo"????
Existing pin scars are a license to continue hammering?????
Troll or attention whore.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:15pm PT
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Hi Ron,
I am not speaking for John in the issue that Steve raises with Ammon—John speaks for himself. And, I am not in a position to say if John and you would agree, but this is what John posted in a thread on “Big Wall Ehtics.”
He is talking about manufacturing difficulty with a chisel and copper heads versus drilling a hole. I know that most aid climbers would not read this in the same light as me, but the logic of drilling to avoid damage is what struck me. Only a few years before, I think, cutting edge aid climbers would have manufactured placements to maintain the difficulty, whereas John and Walt had a view that included not defiling the rock and thinking in terms of future ascents.
I my opinion, it was one of the best posts on ST, although I am not sure how many folks realized the sea change in attitude that John’s decisions mark. (The emphases are mine.)
“On the other hand, I do remember times when I had the opportunity to enhance the rock to maintain difficulty on the first ascents, but didn't. One was on the Flight of the Albatross, on the pitch above the Canoe. After a series of shallow beaks and lousy heads up a 2" corner, with a bad fall potential onto the Canoe ledge, I came to a section of the corner with no seam at all. It would have been a simple matter to trench a single head placement in the shallow corner to get past the section, and it would have been quite secure. For me, that is. It would have been much more secure, in fact, than any of the other garbage placements that I had been ascending on. Continuing above the placement were another string of body weight placments. But with future ascents, the manufactured placement would have gotten more and more ratty, and the pitch would become more and more dangerous and difficult. So I drilled. Without the drilled placement, I could have probably given the pitch the "coveted" A5 rating. But that's really bullsh#t, don't you think? The placement was not a natural one, so the difficulty would have been completely manufactured.
“Another time I was tempted to use the hammer to chisel to rock was on the Kali Yuga. But with Walt, a stickler with purity, there was no chance. It was on a pitch up high on the route, below the Snoopy, a shallow left facing corner with sporadic natural grooves in the seam. It would have been fun and easy (AND secure, mind you) to line the corner with #1 and #2 heads, but every third one (or so) would have had to be trenched with the hammer and chisel. So instead there is now a rivet every third or so placement. The rivets on the pitch bothered me, but for the longevity of the route, it is a better thing, methnks (higher on the same pitch there is a few rivets in a row where there are natural placments, but on the FA there was a 15 foot high, five inch think vertical detached piece of rock that I couldn't even touch, lest it fall and kill Walt directly below. When he let it fall while seconding the pitch, some natural placments in the corner were revealed).”
Best, Roger
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:25pm PT
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Don't start Ron with your "Get out of my Kingdom" rant.
Oh, I forgot that you may have forgotten:
This is a "blade" and this is a "boo" or "bugabook" as Chris calls them Maybe if you wouldn't have used these on a regular basis where a "blade" or "buga boo" would have been appropriate, you'd know what the "boo" was.
Now, next we will find you ranting on how hand placing a pin into an existing scar is a violation of "Your" Clean Code?
Or, if someone softly taps a #3 Steel Nut with a cleaning tool, into an existing pin scar in order to set it, that also is a violation of "Your" Clean Code. Next thing, your going to chastise someone if they "Bounce Test" a nut in order to set it?
Bottom line, Ammon and Chris are very talented climbers and I know that neither meant to hurt the rock nor anyone's, feelings? They just went and kicked ass and did it with style!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:44pm PT
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Thanks Roger.
Interesting, but I have heard conflicting statements from the source regarding judgments of other climbs, so at this point feel forced to reserve my own.
(For example; after the appropriately named Days Of No Future I asked John what would become of such routes with repetitive hammering and his response was, "Who gives a fvck.")
In any case I think that inevitably we will be forced to admit that some compromises will have to be made to preserve our ability to climb. One of them might be a reduction in difficulty or adventure.
But to my mind ANY subsequent ascent of a route suffers from a reduction in adventure if you know already that the route goes.
So fixed anchors could well be such a compromise as well, and, especially in soft rock, pins do not stay fixed and bolts serve better in this function despite the initial (and dare I say philosophical) impact of drilling.
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John O'Connor
Boulder climber
Fort Fun
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:55pm PT
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When I climb Cosmic Trauma I am going to nail more than 1 pin. Clean aid climbing equals subjective danger. Aid climbing, along with trad climbing, bouldering, ice climbing came into being for one reason; to TRAIN for the mountains. Understanding the art of nailing is necessary when climbing serious wall routes in hardcore mountain areas (Baffin, Trangos, Patagonia). How many hard alpine big walls have been climbed clean??? Have fun placing your #2 HB in an iced over crack. haha
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John Fowler
Trad climber
SLC
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:58pm PT
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I feel that this situation brings up some issues that go beyond a single placement and person. That being said, each placement a climber makes is a statement of their style and some climbers actions impact the “community” more than others. Like it or not there are climbers that are “pillars of the community” and the masses will follow by example. That is how climbing advances, both forward and back, over time. Ultimately we should all be concerned with how to achieve the lowest impact to our climbing resource and the “pillars” should (I know this is being very hopeful) help guide the masses to a “better way”. As far as aid climbing goes this would be a “clean/speed” ascent.
While reading through this post I have noticed that a lot of folks are stating that you need to be a cutting edge climber once a route has been done clean. Cosmic Trauma is no more difficult clean than it is nailing. Also there was no special gear required, just a desire to do as little damage a possible. So, there should be no need to carry the hammer. It seems that the rating of most all routes that have been climbed clean have not changes the original rating of the route. Some nailing routes have “evolved” and have been down rated so more wankers (like myself) have a chance at success. I sure do not see much wrong with upping the adventure a bit. I have never seen a route rate C5, most appear to be (high end) C3+, and many have not changed ratings. This is especially true in soft rock. There are plenty of great routes that haven’t been done clean if someone has the need to nail; without doing/nailing the few (relatively) that have been done clean.
A thought on how to handle a route that has had a clean ascent that relies on fixed gear. The first clean ascent party should do their best to document/claim all of the fixed gear that was in place and used; this is directed more to granite versus sandstone (i.e. heads, etc.). Subsequent parties should follow the new standard, but be free to “maintain” the fixed gear. Some fixed gear might be removed/cleaned/fallout and have a clean placement instead of the fixed gear, all the better. This would help slow the evolution of the route and stabilize it for future generations. This, in a loose way, is how free climbs are maintained.
Getting the latest beta is key to maintaining a clean route. This is a huge challenge. I admire the party that bailed off of Cosmic Trauma after being informed that is had been done clean. I have a hard time understanding why a team who is highly skilled would go up on a route (knowing it had been done clean and with a lowly C3 rating) with a hammer and pins. It is the overriding thought process and example that is worrisome; not the actual number of hammer blows.
Peace
John Fowler
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:59pm PT
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"So fixed anchors could well be such a compromise as well, and, especially in soft rock, pins do not stay fixed and bolts serve better in this function despite the initial (and dare I say philosophical) impact of drilling."
WHAT?????
If that is the case Ron, then why did you drill and place BA's into the all the holes (DA's) rather than 1/2" 5 piece RAWLS that were more than available when you "DRILLED" all them DA's?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:05pm PT
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John,
excellent post.
To the rest. I was in error when I suggested UB was a troll or attention whore.
He is obviously both.
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jack herer
climber
veneta, or
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:06pm PT
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Lets see a topo for Turning Point?!!
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no_one
Big Wall climber
Hurricane, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:12pm PT
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I have a friend in common with Ammon and it has been my pleasure to talk with him on a few occasions. Anybody that knows him or has even just met him knows he is humble and is anything but egotistical. Although I don't agree with the way Ammons ethics, ego, and honesty have been brought into question, I do agree that willingly, or not when your as good and as well known as Ammon your actions speek louder to the whole community and may somtimes require some explanation.
I've only been climbing for 11 years so giving my opinion on a forum full of big names like this is probably a waste of my time, especially when it's clear that the opinion of a "noobe" doesn't matter to some of you old timer hardmen that think your climbing achievements define you as a human. I have never pounded a pin other than an angle in a drilled hole for an anchor(that got your attention Ron)and I need to go back and fix it. I have several FA's around Southern Utah all on sandstone. My favorite and most proud is III 5.8x C3. It's short but damn its fun and airy. My hardest onsight FA is 5.12. I feel like an idiot writing this and I only do so that everyone can decide for them selves weather or not my opinion holds any weight.
OK, my opinion,
I think first of all, all care should be taken to minimize impact on the rock, physically and visually by both the FAist and repeaters.
I think we should all climb as clean as possible weather or not the route is still being nailed by some.
I don't think that the acceptable style should be set by the best or craziest among us, there has to be room for the average climber like my self to learn and grow. After all, we've all read posts on this site were climbers brag about how much beer they consume while climbing. To say that those of us with other goals in life, or children at home that need us, can't climb a route because some crazy idiot that doesn't feel he/she has anything to live for, downs a couple Old E's and pulls off some low percentage moves where failure means serious injury or death is rediculous. If that is your goal as clean climbing advocates you will fail. You will fail to achieve the good you could because of your inability to compromise and remember the fact that climbing take experience, experience that is usually gained on the sharp end,the same way you learned. The average climber will not stop doing what they love with such rediculous constraints.
I think subsequent ascents on FAs should be done in no less than the style it was put up in, always trying to be as clean as possible.
Steve
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 13, 2006 - 03:13pm PT
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JIMB,
Thanks for echoing the inescapable logic and consequences behind my clean aid post. As I have said earlier, this discussion is about a mindset to which Ammon seems to ascribe, not a condemnation of the man himself. It isn't really even about speedclimbing, per se. It is about haste and expedience and their relationship to impact. Mimi queried Ammon long ago as to whether he had chosen to pound in the name of speed and he chose not to clarify his position and defend his style. CT simply provided an illuminating test case. To the naysayers still left out there defending Ammon and braying over the right to be destructive, step back and consider what it is that you are defending beyond just getting your ass up without soiling your armor. You are championing pin scars. Get the picture? If you don't, please describe what it is about Serenity Crack in its current state that you so dearly cherish. Despite the irony in its name, this completely bombed out route was emblematic of the need to stop being destructive during the clean climbing push three decades ago, dispelling any notion that nailing was sustainable or desirable in its lasting consequences.
If you choose to free climb SC good for you. If you choose to aid climb the route without using a hammer also good for you. If you choose to use destructive force to do this route free or aid sorry but you suck because you are incrementally adding to the BIG UGLY.
People like myself that push the limits of possibility free climbing, aid climbing, clean climbing, free soloing and any other aspect of the greater game called alpinism and do so without diminishing the experience of those that follow deserve everyones respect. To leave the routes as you found them or better should be the legacy of inspired climbing. To climb gripped by fear or the need for security erodes clarity of purpose and judgement leading to thoroughly uninspired climbing and poor style. Inspired climbing serves as a means to access the potential in ALL OF US to rise up and do better by reaching inside and summoning what is required to meet a challenge well. Inspired climbing, by honoring self actualization, does not seek to close doors or exclude anyone as long as your best effort is the result and that you have properly prepared yourself. If you have to climb outside of your relevant experience and committment to gratify your ego, that is usually where problems arise and regretable events take place while lost in the heat of the moment. Food for thought.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:14pm PT
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John I agree with your statement as to identifying a route as going "Clean" and should be done as such in the future. But, as you well know, in many cases that isn't always a reality as evidenced on the route below where for over 10 years, folks continue to pound in #3 angles where obvious cam or HB's would have gone. And it was advertised and has been a "Clean" route for that period of time. Yet, folks still get on it and pound in angles.
What is the answer? Well, the Arches NP Superindendent has one. Maybe the Zion NP SI will be next and so on. It is the nature of the beast as this discipline we call "Aid" climbing has grown from a handful of "Whacked out Crazy's" to being a "KOOL GIG" where the hammer and piton are the shet that makes one a valid "Wall Rat"!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
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You know Ron, for 35 years I just accepted that there were two sets of rules—one for free climbers and one for aid climbers—when it came to pins. (Partly this is becuase I have no experiece with cams. Yeah, yeah, chuckle away. I am comfortable in my own skin.)
Free climbers did the best they could with sometimes crummy 'clean' protection and ran it out to justify placing a bolt. Aid climbers didn't have the luxury of spacing out bolts to justify placing them—they had to get up the rock. As a climber, I couldn't think of any way to justify banning pins on aid routes: I figured that all routes would just get very easy and very safe or they would be shut down.
But recently, I reached, for me, the startling conclusion that all climbing is just about the rules that we set for ourselves--we don't call the cables on Half Dome climbing and climbers don't 'advance' mountaineering by developing helicopters that can get to the top Everest. Our climbing only has meaning because of the rules that we make for our selves to make sure it is hard enough to be ‘climbing.’
So I asked myself what would be the state of aid climbing if pins had never been allowed in the first place. I decided it wouldn't be endless bolt ladders, as many folks assume. Some routes would be like the El Cap routes are now, but probably not free yet. Hard climbs would more likely be very run out on nuts and cams, hooking, and desperate free climbing with the minimal of bolts to protect the climbing and to get past sections that "were worth it."
Sound familiar?
(BTW, there would still be rock damage just not pin scarring.)
I have been trying out some of these heresies on ST, with full knowledge that I am safely far away from any mortal danger and have no standing as an aid climber. However, the comments from older climbers, relatively speaking, with loads of relavant experience are interesting—-more like minded folks and 'clean' agenda progress than I would have thought.
Best, Roger
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
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No Ron, just calling you on your Bullshet!
You haven't done CT have you? Too bold for ya, your drill & rack of 200 angles?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:35pm PT
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Roger,
no sweat. Great to have you on board the SS Heretic. As other ships founder we should pick up some more crew members...
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deuce4
Big Wall climber
the Southwest
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:31pm PT
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Ad naseum arguments and discussions about a single placement, when elsewhere in our National Parks, miles of wilderness are getting paved with parking lots.
ah, well.
here's some more 2 cents, for whatever it is worth.
First off, Ammon is probably the finest big waller of the era, without a doubt. His accomplishments are pushing the sport into another league. I sure hope he puts his energy into the expeditionary realm sometime, I'm sure we'll see the boundaries really pushed.
Ammon was definitely sensitive to the fact that he placed a pin on a route that had gone clean, why else would he write about it? Steve's prods to Ammon seem to me to be exactly because Ammon is such an icon--if an icon can be critisized, the rest of us nignogs will surely think twice about pounding a pin where others didn't. People like Steve, yielding no ground on the issue of clean climbing, are a catalyst of positive change.
Then again, there's lots we don't know. The argument has been made that routes that once went clean may not always go clean in the future. Especially in Zion with its regions of choss rock. Maybe the placement was blown out? Maybe Ammon's second constructively cleaned the pin so now it will go clean for longer than otherwise? Who knows?
Perhaps someday, clean aid routes will become more like free climbs were back in the 80's: if you couldn't do it free, you retreated, rather than hangdog up the thing. In aid, if people commited to clean routes without even bringing a hammer, the ethic of noble retreating (if not up to the task at hand) would become the natural norm.
Steve's climb of the Muir without even taking a hammer was a mindblowing visionary event for the time (and still is).
(edited)
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:37pm PT
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I like that last paragraph John.
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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
the other side
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:41pm PT
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Because of the tone of the first post, I'm having a hard time buying that the original poster's motivation is truth / information and not animosity, frustration, and possibly jealousy.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:47pm PT
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SS,
regardless.
The issue of resource prservation technique IS worth discussing.
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