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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Aug 13, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
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Grumpy cat 4 the win!
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nah000
climber
canuckistan
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Aug 13, 2014 - 06:34pm PT
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micronut: kudos to the respectfulness of your online persona. that this thread has made it this far and it still has respectful debate is a testament to the positive contribution you make to this forum.
that said, and therefore with all due respect, the wording of your original post is arrogant, it is disrespectfui, and it smacks of a high degree of naivety.
arrogant:
"I offer an alternative to depression, anger, and emptiness."
i am honestly happy that your path has born the fruits that it has for you. if you had framed the same sentiment as "I offer an alternative to depression, anger, and emptiness that worked for me." i would have no issue with your statement. to presume that you are in a position of knowing where you can offer with black and white certainty a trade that makes depression, anger, and emptiness go away, or be at least tempered, is unbelievably arrogant.
some of the other things you have written seem less black and white and so maybe it was only intended as an attention grabbing title. as it stands, and despite what i assume are only good intentions, it is quite a dismissive start to what is at minimum a very naive premise.
disrespectful:
"My life has purpose. My Fate is sealed. My days have meaning. My nights have comfort. My identity is secure. I fear not. I ride an even keel. I am slave to nothing. My load is light. My needs are few and simple. I am not lonely. I am loved. I am inherently selfish and broken but in a state of repair and for that I am grateful but I am not unique.
Any true Christian feels all the above things." [emphasis added]
by this measure mother theresa, john paul II, hell even jesus himself were likely not true christians as, by some accounts, they struggled [not just in moments, but on a regular, maybe even continuous, basis] with much that is on your list.
naive:
"Now don't get me wrong, the maladies of life and humanity do not just disappear with a life devoted to a loving and sovereign God, they just don't hold such power over you or define you anymore."
i've seen up close, over the course of 30+ years, one of my closest friends, one of the most incredible artists i personally know, struggle with virtually continuous and ongoing suicidal tendencies, depression, rage, etc.
this is all despite his heartfelt and full belief in christ and a christian path.
due to childhood abandonment by his mother, physical and psychological abuse at the hands of the grandparents who raised him, loss of limb in an industrial accident and due to the failure of this society to fairly compensate or appreciate the incredible talent that his gift to the world is [his art] he has struggled with pretty much all of the things that are on your list to the point of electroshock therapy, temporary commitment against his will, ongoing drug cocktails, etc.
stop being naive: your premise is born out of a life of luxury in part due to being dealt a sweet deck of cards.
i say this not begrudging you any of the above and i'm also not assuming that you haven't dealt with real and true difficulties in your life.
due to what you've shared here, i know many of the positives that you have in your life. i also know how easy it is to misidentify the root cause of those positives and assume you have answers for people who were truly born on a friday the 13th.
sorry, but you don't have answers for everyone.
while you may dismiss all of this as coming from someone full of hate, i hope you don't.
i love life and am genuinely happy that you have found a path that works for you. i even hope you continue to spread the "good news". there are some who will benefit from it.
my only admonishment is that i hope you'll temper your words a bit. to make statements saying what "true" christians will or won't feel or experience is to place, in some circumstances, more burden on those who are truly suffering.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 13, 2014 - 07:26pm PT
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Religious believing is top-roping
Excellent metaphor.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 07:34pm PT
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Supertopo has had its share of loss lately. Climber's deaths, good posters leaving, threads getting out of hand and users getting deleted. There are four separate suicide threads going and most of them have people arguing and saying vile things to eachother while others mourn and share of their own dealings with suicidal tendencies.
I feel it would be downright un-caring of me not to share what I firmly believe to be the cure for man's inherently broken condition, and that is the crazy real love and joy that comes with knowing Jesus Christ.
Now I'm prepared to take some heat for this. This website has some of the most hateful people on it that I have ever encountered, and many more who detest Christians and enjoy making fun of them or those they believe to be Christians. I'm fine with that. Haters are gonna hate. Its commonplace around here to have people hate on christians. But there are also many many more of you who are kind and generous and thoughtful and creative and stoked who are really fun and cool and great to hang out with in real life or just here in playpretendland. But I say this. In Christianity come a few things that are very real and very profound, and for any of those that seek solace from their constant anger, constant inner sorrow, constant battle with depression or fear or distrust or emptiness..........it just doesn't have to be that way. Now don't get me wrong, the maladies of life and humanity do not just disappear with a life devoted to a loving and sovereign God, they just don't hold such power over you or define you anymore.
My life is full of joy. True, deep, warm, filling joy. Like being on a summit in blue sky with your best bud with nothing but endless peaks around. No lie, that's what beats inside my gut every day. And I did not invent or contrive it. It was a gift. That's all.
My life has purpose. My Fate is sealed. My days have meaning. My nights have comfort. My identity is secure. I fear not. I ride an even keel. I am slave to nothing. My load is light. My needs are few and simple. I am not lonely. I am loved. I am inherently selfish and broken but in a state of repair and for that I am grateful but I am not unique. Any true Christian feels all the above things. It's a rare thing out there and its the real deal. It's what comes with the gift of a new and fresh perspective and a transformation from old to new. We all do. And we look at a world of friends and family around us swimming in circles of pain and emptiness and anger and malice and sadness and downright loneliness and we feel for them. Basically I'm not one to typically share my faith with those who don't ask. But really, I like so many folks here on Supertopo and I feel for those that may be hurting or wondering if there is something more to life and since I've seen so many people in my life share real testimonies about once being there and now living such a rewarding life in Christ that I have to tell myself "Scott, if you don't say something you really just don't care about these people."
So there. I said it. I'm a Christian who lives each day with a higher calling and a peace in me that is beyond understanding and I sometimes can't help but want to share the stoke.
So twenty something TR's later and seven years of general climbing stoke and you get one blatant Christianity offer thread. If any of you ever want to know more about the Christian faith and a true slake for thirst that comes from a well that will never dry up, feel free to ask me here or email me or find me in Facebook land. I care about yall, and I've never met most of you, but it grieves me to see such hurt and confusion and anger and vinegar out there. I just know it doesn't have to be that way.
So let the slander begin. That's cool. But I'm just goin on the record that if anyone ever wants to chat about the good stuff, I'm here. Who knows, this might be the start of a new day for somebody.
See you around Supertopo, I got a TR to write.
Your resident Christian,
Micronut.
Well said, my brother. I just read your OP, and not the rest of of what I expect to be usual Christian-bashing, you're an idiot for believing in a ghost in the sky, etc...
I agree with you completely, but I would also add that self-murder (suicide) is disrespectful to family. Especially to your children. Selfish sums it up well.
You not only curse your own self, but you leave family with a deep, dark remorse.
It's a cruel thing to do to your family, and a cowards way out. And God frowns upon this too...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 13, 2014 - 07:37pm PT
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First off I want to say I absolutely love micronut, Dean, Lynne, and the dozens of spiritual folk here who I've talked to over the years. I notice that their faith helps them to make good in the world and I would never take that from them.
I was very religious until my early 20's. All through that time I had mild suicidal thoughts, never had girls interested in me, couldn't figure out life at all. Life was supposed to follow some plan but it never did - praying seemed about as helpful as a coin toss and the thought police church put on me took years to undue. I had to figure our life as me, a sexual deviant with a distrust of faith and a love for every man and woman, gay or a prostitute or a priest.
I think I will become more spiritual as I mature, as life's mysteries seem harder to grasp - But that isn't ideology. Ideology ruins lives, it subjugates women and allows for very very bad men to hide in their fellowships.
I would love to see more effort from the wonderfully spiritual people to acknowledge these things and grow, to let go of the archaic dogma that is a reflection of Iron Age philosophy. This has not been the case and as pedophiles are hid in boxes and human rights are squandered I hear not a peep from their own community.
Want us to look at your words seriously? Join the 21st century.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 13, 2014 - 07:42pm PT
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You only live one life. It is yours to live. You may choose to take it and no one's words matter - but it is YOUR life. Make it yours first.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 13, 2014 - 07:53pm PT
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I know I will get the typical ST group slam for this but truth is potent and makes people angry. But some will listen and check it out for themselves.
You want power over and the ability to stop: depression, alcoholism, drugs, pornography, homosexuality, dependencies, addictions, and perversions of all kinds etc. etc. etc.? (I'm referring to specific problems in your own life that are haunting you.)
Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus the Messiah is the answer.
How many demons did Yeshua cast out of people along with his disciples/apostles after him throughout his ministry and the lives of his followers, as illustrated in the Brit Hadasha, the New Covenant? Many.
And the power to do so is here with us today.
Satan is for real, and so are his minions. They were once with G-d but now fallen and they now hate G-d. They want nothing more than to make our lives miserable, lost, sick, broken, and if they can to take our physical lives from us and away from G-d.
There is demon possession and then there is demon influence. They aren't the same. Most of us are not possessed (well there could be a few here at ST you never know. Lol). But all of us have been influenced by Satan and his minions at one time or another. Some more than others. Sometimes a demon will latch onto someone with a death grip and that person will have the most miserable time with illnesses, afflictions, addictions, depression and the list goes on and on. Or it can be just one serious addiction or problem they can't shake or get rid of.
Fallen Angels and Demons have personalities and they specialize. It's not peoples' faults that they do this (sometimes yes), but yes, we can feed them and make it easier for them to stay in our lives and the condition can get worse and worse.
The best book I have read on this subject by far is:
Demonology, Possession, Exorcism & The Kingdom of Darkness
by Dr. Carson Michael, a clinical psychologist and believer in Yeshua.
http://www.amazon.com/Demonology-Possession-Exorcism-Kingdom-Darkness-ebook/dp/B008A5ZTM6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1407984606&sr=8-1&keywords=Demonology%2C+possession%2C+Exorcism+%26+The+Kingdom+of+Darkness
He has a vast knowledge and experience base to draw from. The read will blow your mind about what we are facing. But we know he who is in us Adonai (The Lord), is stronger than he who is in the world, that would be Satan and his minions. We can overcome in Yeshua. The answer is as plain as that. As plain as day.
By the way, check into it ... How many people have stopped an alien abduction by calling on the name of Yeshua, Jesus? Many. Even non-believers. The Son of G-d's Name is powerful.
How many of you have cried out to G-d in a desperate climbing situation and ended up safe? Many. I have.
G-d is for real. There is divine help for us. Tap into it today.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 13, 2014 - 07:59pm PT
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You want power over and the ability to stop: depression, alcoholism, drugs, pornography, homosexuality, dependencies, addictions, and perversions of all kinds etc. etc. etc.?
I'm just going to leave this here.
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Mello Yellow
Trad climber
Alpharetta, ga
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
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Micronuts, Your thoughts are considerate and honest, and thank you for sharing! It's refreshing to see a post like yours and hopefully it will give people pause to appreciate all we have when so many others in the world are suffering unspeakable atrocities for doing nothing more than having faith in their beliefs. Tonight there are several thousand people on a mountain in Iraq that have gone there, not to climb, but to try and survive. Regardless of anyone's religion (or non-religion) that may be reading this post, please pray or keep them in your thoughts and appreciate all the freedom you have to chose your beliefs.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
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I was very religious until my early 20's. All through that time I had mild suicidal thoughts, never had girls interested in me, couldn't figure out life at all. Life was supposed to follow some plan but it never did - praying seemed about as helpful as a coin toss and the thought police church put on me took years to undue. I had to figure our life as me, a sexual deviant with a distrust of faith and a love for every man and woman, gay or a prostitute or a priest.
I think I will become more spiritual as I mature, as life's mysteries seem harder to grasp - But that isn't ideology. Ideology ruins lives, it subjugates women and allows for very very bad men to hide in their fellowships.
I would love to see more effort from the wonderfully spiritual people to acknowledge these things and grow, to let go of the archaic dogma that is a reflection of Iron Age philosophy. This has not been the case and as pedophiles are hid in boxes and human rights are squandered I hear not a peep from their own community.
Want us to look at your words seriously? Join the 21st century.
Greg, I have an obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, some call it an addictive personality. And I've been to rehab for heroin/cocaine problems against my will. I was forced.
Doesn't help.
I'll continue in a sec when i gather my thoughts. Depression was NEVER a problem with me. Quite the opposite!
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 13, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
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Paul in no way did I say or imply that depression is a sin or that being depressed is sin. I apologize if somehow it came out that way.
And to answer your question about the Fresno pastor. Jamie was a close personal friend if mine. My pastor at the time and a guy who loved the mountains. You would have liked him. I still feel his loss often.
Lets you and me have lunch soon. I cant finger type on my phone well enough to do this conversation justice. I promise I wont try to convert you or preach at cha. As I made my promise to Mark Hudon once when he asked me "now if we climb El Cap you aren't going to sacrifice a goat or a virgin on summit are you man?"
Lets hook up and talk about Lone Pine Peak........
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:04pm PT
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MelloYellow, amen! ^^^^^^^^
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:15pm PT
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My post isn't asking you to ditch religion. In fact, if it were up to me, had I been gifted with a button that would wipe the world of religious ideology I would not press it. I don't claim to know the best way to live - and there in is the problem.
Now several posts ago Klimmmer mentioned that God can help cure you of homosexuality. I eagerly await for his ghastly comment to be corrected by his brethren, who know full well it is that same mentality that leads to thousands of suicides each year in our country.
Scott? Blue (sorry don't think u can recall your first band my friend) - care to pint out that he is grossly misrepresenting the teaches of Jesus Christ?
This was my point and you helped make it succinctly.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
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Religion is for some, not all, if it's your bag...enjoy and keep it personal, most people out there can figure things out for themselves and don't appreciate proselytizing.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
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Paul, the Christian doctrine of sin seems rather misunderstood. In orthodox (as opposed to Orthodox) Christian doctrine, to sin is to fall short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23) From that definition, it follows that humans cannot atone for sin by themselves. What can we do? Exceed God's glory?
Second, orthodox Christian doctrine does not classify sin. Sin is sin, whether we consider it "little" or "big." (James 2:10) Jesus equated calling my brother an idiot to murdering him. (Matt. 5:21-22).
This doctrine (I use that term for unbelievers. To us, it's truth) isn't to make us miserable, but to draw us to God's mercy (see, e.g. Gal. 3:23-25).
Incidentally, the reason I give Scriptural references here is to verify the accuracy of the doctrine. Virtually all misdeeds purported to be done in Christ's name come from ignoring or defying Scripture. That's why we study it. Those who purport to preach sound doctrine but who don't know Scripture are bound to be in error in their doctrine. For that reason, I have to laugh when some on this thread claim to state Christian doctrine while simultaneously admitting ignorance of Scripture.
Enough of doctrine. I was hoping to make it to Metalmark tonight, but Lisa, who borrowed my car, is detained. I can't go tomorrow evening, either, so I may just need to get my climbing fix at the mountains this week, where "true climbing" takes place.
;>)
John
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:32pm PT
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Greg, I had a mild, 1-year stint as a heroin snorter, not injecting, while I lived in Hong Kong during my senior year in HK. I got busted smuggling weed back from India on a school trip there.
I was facing a bad scene.
I got released under conditions that I leave HK after graduation and never come back. I agreed. I also had to agree to rehab.
Since I had no more heroin, I stopped, had no more desires for it, and rehab was a pony-show.
All done, and Interpol took me off their stupid smuggler lists.
I took up coke after my divorce about 8 years later. THERE is where my depression started. I was never depressed before, just looking to get high.
My ex-wife betrayed me. She was f*#king somebody behind my back. She wasn't satisfied that I was too normal, and not "hip" enough. She used the excuse that I drank too much, but back then I was a lightweight. I was not a drunk. Like 4-5 beers/day in my 30's.
I was shattered by this because I wanted kids and trusted her. She f*#ked around behind my back and I caught her.
She made it sound like I made her do it.
We divorced against my will, and I went into "depression".
I only survived because after I realized that it was really over, I had to move on and find someone else to spend my life with, and grow a family with.
I did.
I lost hold of God for a while, but something happened and I realized that I could still go on. Start all over with a relatively clean slate.
That's where I am today. I have a loving new wife, a 6-yr old kid, and I stay away from drugs. I still drink, but understand that I have to watch myself.
My point? Scott (micronut), is right. Having faith in God is good. But developing a relationship with him is the best thing to do. Prayer.
Ask the Lord, Jesus Christ, and God to help you and protect you against harm and sin. Ask for their forgiveness.
I pray for my family everyday. Give it a shot. Just ask God to show you the way.
I have been through some amazing things I probably should not have lived through, but I feel that somebody was looking after me.
EDIT:Scott? Blue (sorry don't think u can recall your first band my friend) - care to pint out that he is grossly misrepresenting the teaches of Jesus Christ?
This was my point and you helped make it succinctly.
What is this, Greg?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:45pm PT
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Christianity is in decline in America and Europe, and the intolerance and anti-science stances of the Born Again movement has played a major role in this downward trend.
The young in particular, who are coming of age in a more diverse, more accepting society, and who have new alternatives for community beyond the church, are just saying no thanks to the Movement's institutionalized ignorance and bigotry.
If Christianity is to survive, it must reform and align with today's more egalitarian, tolerant morays. If it does not, it will continue to become less relevant over time.
First, the literal Bible - which has shackled the Movement's ability to reform and keep up with the times, must be abandoned. Acceptance of other faiths - and non-faiths, must be adopted. It's End of the World cult mentality, worn thin after 2000 years of overuse, must end, as must its ridiculous war on science. Finally, the church's anti gay and anti women stances must morph into pro-human rights stances.
Unfortunately for the Born Again movement, it's reaction to the hemorrhaging of its membership has been to further calcify and circle the wagons. The problem is that as it loses membership, it loses voters, money, and political clout. The day may come sooner than later when churches lose their tax exemption - many congregations wouldn't survive that new financial climate, and the government supported buyer's advantage currently enjoyed by the Catholic Church in its drive to buy up hospitals will evaporate.
The Mormons may actually be catalysts for such reform. They have a robust mechanism for adapting doctrine to modern times. They offer a healthy lifestyle attractive and strong sense of community that is attractive to many. If they continue to out compete the Born Again movement, they may well drag it kicking and screaming into the future.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
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I honestly don't remember your first name off-hand. It wasn't a dig or back-handed comment.
My avatar is "GDavis." It's reasonable people can easier recall my name. I've had great conversations with Scott but remembered it was him after seeing someone else say it.
Names are hard lol.
As far as your personal story I've known that you are a dude of strong principles - it's great to see your life doing so well. Again, to each their own and I'd prefer you go through this life happy and healthy.
(The post above reiterates my point)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:47pm PT
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It really doesn't matter which crutch you use to beat away the dog, as long as it works for you.
Prolly the most intelligent thing I remember you ever saying....
Find a reason to live. You are life, don't take it from yourself.
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Aug 13, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
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Whom or what decides who is or is not a "real christian"? From my experience those folks claiming to be "christian" are usually poor examples of such. A bunch of hypocrites out there for sure . . . such a conflicted mindset does not promote transcendence. We are all, as humans, in a constant state of physical, psychological and spiritual evolution . . . religion will one day be a dark period in our evolutionary record. That is if we survive the destruction wrought by our primitive consciousness.
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