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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 17, 2014 - 07:35am PT
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Aid ratings are further compromised by the fact that every time the hammer is used the route is altered.
Here in Zion even clean aid walls are being altered by people over using spring loaded camming devices where nuts would work. Just the pivoting from rope movement is podding out the placements, as is tapping out nuts by the second.
Pretty much the only way to preserve walls is not to climb them. I'm not an armchair mountaineer, I'm a committed conservationist.
Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 17, 2014 - 08:08am PT
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Any comment from me about aid climbing is extreme noobishness but here goes.
As I have read Beyer accounts of his ascents and he refers to pulling out an ice axe (or any such tool for extreme xtension of reach) I have wondered about the phenomena of "If you have it, you will use it - and justify it!"
So if one lugs an ice axe on a solo aid climb (doesn't that just sound bizarre on its face) by GOD, it will get used. (Like the argument why we should not arm Generals in war with authority to use nuclear weapons.)
I will never take up aid climbing in any form, much less the extreme gear orgies of the modern genre, so again, so feel free to discount everything I say. This is the intardnet, so I too can be foolish at times and speak when I should be silent.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2014 - 08:17am PT
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So if one lugs an ice axe on a solo aid climb (doesn't that just sound bizarre on its face)
No it's not bizarre.
Lets say you're doing a winter ascent of a wall.
There's been many cases of people topping out to meet nothing but ice on the top with no options except to "Summit or Plummet".
Having and ice ax would have been a life saver.
We rescued some guys on the very last pitch of the regular route on Half Dome once because they got stuck there during a freak spring freezing overnight storm.
I could bring up several more examples that happened over the years where an ice ax would have been used had it been available on an aid wall.
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TWP
Trad climber
Mancos, CO
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Nov 17, 2014 - 08:53am PT
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How about carrying an ice axe in the summertime on an aid route and using it as an extreme extension device on a rock pitch? Now does it sound bizarre? That's how I recall the Beyer account I have in mind. Of course, I do not dispute the logic in the scenarios that Herr Braun posits. I am humbled to be schooled by Werner, an authority I respect and to whom I will always defer.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 17, 2014 - 08:56am PT
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Always bring an iceax, got it! And a towel!
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2014 - 09:01am PT
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There's a Valley local here who at times free solos the Steck Salathe in early spring with an ice ax for the descent.
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Rivet hanger
Trad climber
Barcelona
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Nov 17, 2014 - 09:09am PT
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As the Larry says: Lots of armchair climbing on the Taco! Someone could go and repeat some of his routes... Indeed, they are in Yosemite, not in Moab.
To bring light to all these questions I just know one fundamentalist able to face the challenge: Richard Jensen (maybe Mark Smith could join the challenge too to give it a little bit more of credibility).
I guess an A5c(X) rating will motivate him to attempt a SA. It's not an A6 on the Towers, but A5c is very near and has more letters... We'll make a collection on McTopo to buy him a GoPro to prove his (their) claims and a publishing to edit the future book "Wings of wooden wedges on the wall. A record 39 days drilling holes on the face of El Capitan. A fascinating adventure and powerful Christian spiritual odyssey to downrate a A5 route to A3+.". If the money is enough maybe a film can be made too.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 17, 2014 - 09:24am PT
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Rivet hanger is back!!! Hooray! This thread has now reached epic status.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Released into general population, Idaho
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Nov 17, 2014 - 09:26am PT
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Was that a cold breeze I just felt in this thread?
Mierda, que hace frío!
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ground_up
Trad climber
mt. hood /baja
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Nov 17, 2014 - 11:17am PT
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Am I the only one thinking it sounds like ya'all are discussing a
drama queen ... not a badass .
A real badass doesn't have to let
everyone know that they are indeed a badass , and then remind them
lest they forget.
I gotta say , these threads that read like the national enquirer
are some of the most entertaining.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Nov 17, 2014 - 12:29pm PT
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Well, the guy is a legitimate badass. Perhaps one with an additional need for drama, but a badass nonetheless.
Any and al other assertions about the personality may be true as well. Haven't met him.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Nov 17, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
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Beyer is yet another craftsman whiling his craft with his artistic interpretation on the vertical. I've got respect for his routes, but not for his opinionated political views, which tend toward generalising and racism.
He definitely fights for what he believes in. Saw him attack Roland in the Camp 4 parking lot (indeed, Roland was fueling the feud by revving a power drill Rambo style), which put the three of us sitting on our hands with several LEO guns pointing at us (I was an innocent bystander :).
The only dodgy thing I ever heard of him doing was to re-toprope sections of a first ascent on the West Face and then called it a free section on the topo. But otherwise he's ascended some pretty spectacular sections of rock all over the world, in his own unique style. I don't reckon he's abused the resource, mainly because he has a vision so unique the resource would not otherwise be considered a resource at all.
As Mick sings,
Let's drink to the hard working people
Let's drink to the salt of the earth
Let's drink to the two thousand million
Let's think of the humble of birth
Let's drink to the hard working people
Let's think of the lowly of birth
Spare a thought for the rag taggy people
Let's drink to the salt of the earth
Beyer fits in there somewhere (as do we all at times), I reckon...
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johnkelley
climber
Anchorage Alaska
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Nov 17, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
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BJ
climber
Nov 15, 2014 - 08:26pm PT
The report is 1998 climbs, but in the 2001 AAJ. So he should be 58?
I think we did those climbs in 2000
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
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I miss my good brother deuce4 ......
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Nov 17, 2014 - 02:18pm PT
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Hola mi amigos of dog mother Americanos!
Mi hombre Beyer is "the hombre" and has the A6 blood and gives esperanza to the Spanish man who does the escalante d'Aid! The American Dogs try to bring him down because they no have the A6 blood and soft erections on the A6.
Viva Beyer and VIVA Espania you dogs of America!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Nov 17, 2014 - 02:33pm PT
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Miss you too, Werner! But the spirit and peace of our shared conversations still are part of my compass in life. I do imagine showing up at the cache one of these years to give you and Merry a big hug (then hopefully get dragged up one or two of those climbs we used to solo). Cheers
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 17, 2014 - 04:03pm PT
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"it is currently an acceptable practice on aid climb to drill bolts, rivets or bat hook holes for progress or safety on existing Aid Wall routes if the climber feels it's unsafe or just plain can't figure out the moves."
Eric/Klaus - who says this is acceptable behaviour? Who considers it acceptable? I don't, and I've never done it. [although of course I have been accused of it!]
Donini - dude, that was good. You must be smarter than you look. ;)
j-tree - my understanding of Highway To Hell is that the bottom two pitches are mostly drilled bathole ladders linking the rappel anchors below Native Son creating a contrived but direct route up to the big ledge there, whatever it's called.
To those of you who don't aid climb, a bathole is a shallow drilled hole that you have to hook. Originally used to avoid placing a rivet or bolt, they are generally considered these days to be artificially inflating the rating of an aid pitch, and are rarely used. They fell out of favour thirty or more years ago. The general consensus of opinion these days [and there are always exceptions] is that "if you have to drill because there is nothing on the rock that will allow upward progress, then you should fill the hole with a rivet." Many aid climbs contain rivet ladders spanning blank sections of rock between cracks or other climbable features.
Highway To Hell is a significant recent exception. The first ascensionists chose to drill a ladder of batholes. A pitch that might have been an A1 rivet ladder is now an A5 bathole ladder. Is this legit, or not? What if I climb the route with twenty Talon hooks, twenty Screamers, and a roll of duct tape, and put a hook for pro in every hole? Is it A5, or A1? I don't know, I haven't climbed it. But if I did, you know what I'd be bringing....
Another recent route [1997] that used a lot of bathook holes is Continental Drift. Certainly the holes, rather than rivets, make the climb harder and scarier! I climbed that one, and found the climbing really good, but the batholes were a bit disappointing to me. There were no bathook ladders on CD, just holes here and there where the FA'ists chose to drill a shallow hole, rather than place a rivet. Although sometimes you find a dozen or more bathook holes on a single pitch.
But a big problem with batholes is that as more and more ascensionists hook them, the rock gets rounded and eventually, the hole is no longer useable, which is an argument that Piton Ron raises above.
So that's why not many people use bathook holes these days.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 17, 2014 - 05:36pm PT
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But a big problem with batholes is there is nothing there to begin with and it was forced to create a new variation.
When there's nothing there "A line of least resistance" then you force it with with various tools to give yourself the illusion it's there ......
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 17, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
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then you force it with with various tools to give yourself the illusion it's there ......
These are batshit holes. Guano routes with lotsa batshit holes.
Duct tape=A1, Pete thats funny.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Nov 17, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
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We have seen these men before, these Beyers. Their myths are awful and always flawed.
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