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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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here's another question:
what's the difference between this route up the slab, and a bolt ladder?
now don't get all freakin pissed off yet-
i know there is a difference- but WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?
(nice caps, huh?)
the difference is all these hard and scary hook moves in between the bolts, right?
ok, so then what is the difference between this route and a route with hard and scary moves between varying opportunities for natural protection, sometimes good and sometimes poor?
and exactly what was the difference, in the context of early 1980s el cap climbing, to climbers in yosemite at that time, between this route and a route with hard and scary moves between varying opportunities for natural protection, sometimes good and sometimes poor?
think real hard about that one-
do you have your own answer?
don't just read mine- seriously- what is YOUR opinion?
it seems to me, that back in the day, the difference was the same as the difference between something they wanted to climb, something they found appealing, something they thought of as worthy, and something they thought of simply as a bolt ladder, forced up the middle of a slab.
am i wrong?
and didn't they bitch these guys out for starting up a slab that would require a bolt ladder? and hadn't these guys just waltzed in and hopped on their line, w/out making any real effort (or at least enough effort, apparently) to understand the culture or the ethics of the climbers in that area at that time?
and didn't those guys, back in the day, take their ethics pretty damn seriously?
and weren't rap bolting and sport climbing poking their heads up everywhere, well, everywhere BUT in yosemite?
and weren't these newcomer guys NOT listening to what everyone else thought of their choice of a line, and the style that climbing it would require?
perhaps they thought that if the WoS crew "paid their dues" by climbing some other routes on el cap, that the prevailing opinion, the local ethics, would rub off on them, given ample opportunity to pass in the footseps of the legends that had come before them, and see what the traditions of el cap climbing were all about?
several people in this thread have implied that "paying their dues" would equate to proving themselves in some way- who says that's the issue? maybe doing some other hard routes would have given them insight into local style and customary practices?
i have stated repeatedly that i am not passing judgement on these guys ar this route, but to be honest, all this banter has made me think about it a bit, and this is where i am heading:
it's not as if nobody told them that they didn't like their choice of a line and the style that climbing it required, and yet they turned their noses up at "those local as#@&%es" and went about their business as they saw fit- ok fine- but don't now come cry that no one liked their choice of a line and the style that climbing it required- whatever- i don't see how they get to complain about it now, TS.
and what about shitting on those ropes? ok that's f*#ked up, but to them, so was conquering el cap w/ a drill, and they were defending her, in their minds.
i for one, 25 years later, am not prepared to say that anyone was right or anyone was wrong, but i feel like it might be fair to say that you guys chose your own path, despite what "the community" (whom you now wish to rely upon for the unknown past dirty details and eventually the future redemption you seek) was telling you, and telling you loud and clear.
i am not all the way there, but i think the conversation cannot and should not focus on the difficulty of the hooking moves on your route, where pete has directed it. you didn't put that route up in 2006, and therefore pete is really not the guy whose opinion matters (nor am i).
further, your fight cannot be won by simply convincig people that the climbing is bold. as proof, i will concede that the climbing is bold. so what? your route was not well recieved, no one from your era repeated it, and what is remembered about it is that you wouldn't listen to the community at the time, and you climbed your route in a style that people at the time did not approve of.
please explain to me whay that take on all of this would be inaccurate (and remember, i have conceded that your route was hard and bold, and that shitting on your ropes was mean, so please do not use those issues as justifications in your argument, as they ae more or less beside the point).
cheers,
-matt
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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matt,
that's not a bad synopsis.
it's a pretty good rough out contextual sketch describing how this thing came about.
i don't mean to sign this post of matt's and pass it as an indictment either.
understanding is what many people would like and this helps, IMHO.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Oh my gosh! I just read Russ' response to my rant way up above somewhere. Too funny!!!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I had only a handful or so of grade 5's and 6's under my belt when this thing came down and although I was present, I felt no personal authority to heavily snub WOS or Mark and Richard, but I was quite aware that hard nailing implied linking features.
Free climbs more in the line of what I had been introduced to and pioneered at that time, were not so different in kind from the WOS, yet this became apparent to me only when I spoke with Richard and Mark at the SAR meeting: ie, that this thing was not a bolt ladder but a linkage of nasty hook maneuvers protected by bolts, so I sort of went "hmmm" to myself and when I asked one or two of the SAR guys about that, they said they stuck by the forced line issue.
At that point, I figured the WOS guys were nice, honest, bold perhaps to a fault, yet out of the loop and now in pretty deep.
I had my own free climbs to do, the thing had been chopped, so I couldn't investigate placements and that's about the last of it for my part at that time.
Richard et al, what I meant by swinging the wrecking ball the other way:
Richard, to paraprase you, you stated something to the effect that Russ's feelings that this was a bummer for you were flat or hollow: If you want some contrition I suggest you do not reject it out of hand.
The general tone of PTPP, darod, Nef is that there is gonna be some big thing exposed, all these names here on ST are going to lose face and all this type of thing. This is what I mean by swinging a broad brush or ball back the other way. I have suggested let the route speak for itself.
Running Russ and Werner down for answers they may not posess also gets broad and aggressive. You can ask and that's about it. We don't even know who originally saw the bolts/tactics, then you have the desecrators, then you have the phenomenon of cultural absorption fanning out from there. So a smear campaign, or specific culpability in that regard is not so easy to discern. There were accepted standards of the times and this route was a major flag. No one person made these standards and no small group dreampt them up in anything like an arbitrary fashion: this was a generational legacy, it spanned generations. You have to be very precise when deciding intent and culpability to truly smear and this is not so easy to do.
Russ, Werner, myself: we had our own climbing to do, we may have known names 2nd hand at the time, but believe it, I now no way can say for certain who did what. People were bragging complicity who were thought to have been uninvolved. Memory does fade when it's not something really eating at you.
Remember, even accepted members of our community went head to head in a very hard way during this time period: Bachar and Kauk in fact went head to head over rap bolting in the valley/meadows and Chapman slugged Bachar over it. Yaniro got a lot of flack.
I do not see that jealousy is at the root of the detractor's sentiments (whether we are speaking of a few choppers or the broad community). I see people who felt they needed to uphold a hard won and time honored tradition. Yes the "perps" of the chopping and feces and threats were big time out of hand and in an obvious way, all bets were off for this thing to be set in a humane regard concerning the culture at large. This of course has much to do with the very real and understandable angst and effort which Mark and Richard have felt and shown.
These were volatile times: early 80's to mid 80's. This WOS thing was really a major crescendo and a big feature of the shifting times, but believe it, there was more to come.
Sincerely,
Roy McClenahan
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Gunkie
climber
East Coast US
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I'm counting *at least* eight (8) cage matches that could be set up from this one thread. Anyone have a more accurate count?
BTW, I know someone on Staten Island that goes by the name 'Snake'. And it's not Snake Pliskin. He quietly solves these kinds of problems for a fee; or so I hear. Doesn't anyone in Cali know of a 'Snake' kind of problem solver? Or is that now that state of 'Tofu & Latte'?
Or maybe I'll solo the second ascent of WoS once my Cliffhanger boltgun comes back from the shop. And I'm still looking forward to finding out who the Poop-On-Command guy was. I'm betting it's Mike Corbett. He probably has a taste for Geritol by now.
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the Fet
climber
A urine, feces, and guano encrusted ledge
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Since this is rapidly becoming a significant event in Yosemite climbing history, I wonder if it's possible at this point to preserve a part of this climb in the Yosemite climbing museum.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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well, cripes Fet, that does it.
now you go and make someone laugh.
-and boy howdi did i.
beeter get that poop over to chicken skinner ASAP.
i just perused LEB's latest thread/inquiry/troll extravaganza.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=232153&f=0&b=0
it occurs to me that,
given time,
(Lots of it)
LEB (Lois) can "Columbo" this thing and git all the answers Richard, Mark, PTPP, darod, Nefarius, et al and all the inquiring minds need to know.
as if we don't know enuff already.
except the names of the perps.
and if there really exists a smear.
'come on Lois, git to it.
we are all pooched on this thing.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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OK, I want to pose my question again now that it's buried under several feet of Matt.
What is it you guys want out of this latest flareup? At this point you've cleared your names and nobody is doubting your ethics/style, the only debate left is pure aesthetic opinion and you have to realize you've probably swayed all the public opinion what's gonna sway. So all of this protestation and drama is over finding out who took a crap on your gear 25 years ago? If not, what more?
I mean, I understand it wasn't a cool thing to do and all, and you'd love to know who actually wronged you, but come on, but if you never find out are you going to die still pissed about this, or are you going to find a way to get over it?
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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I admit it. I was one of the people who krapped on your ropes. I had no idea that it would scar you so severely. I will be haunted by your pain forever.
And I'm calling you out for calling out my friends. Who the F do you think you are, you little pricks?!
Mimi
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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I know who did it.
But like Huggy Bear, I want a little sumthin' sumthin'.
Knowledge is power, and power ain't free, ask the electric company...
Actually, I am enjoying watching the drama too much.
Maybe I should ebay it?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Folks,
If you read nothing else on this thread besides what Mark and Richard have to say, please read these two people's posts:
the Fet - he gets it better than anyone
Craig Shaw - absolutely classic, and indicative of the kind of ignorance of the climbers of the day. Even now Craig still doesn't get it, and in [url="http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=231718#msg232328"]his post above[/url] accuses Mark and Richard of "rap[ing] this stone", a misperception fromthe past he continues to hold.
Maybe someone could suggest to Craig that he investigate a bit further to realize that far from raping the stone, Mark and Richard put up a pretty darn hard route in fine style, and that if he were to read some of the stuff here on McTopo, he might avoid putting his foot so firmly in his mouth henceforth.
But man, if that doesn't illustrate the kind of stuff those guys had to put up with, I sure don't know what does! Wow!
Lots of other great comments and questions I'll address when I get a moment. Do carry on, eh?
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Um, I believe Craig described the sentiment of the day pretty accurately. And many people with knowledge and respect for Yosemite climbing hold that sentiment today.
Where were you during that time, Pete? Just curious.
Fine style? You've got to be kidding.
Stuff those guys had to put up with? Go figure.
It was truly a "vertical freight hauling marvel." W. Harding.
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Twight is God
Mountain climber
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I'm not entirely sure why Richard and Mark would want an apology from the guys who did the shitting anyway. Anyone whose idea of resolving a climbing dispute is to chop someone's route, sh#t on the ropes, and then climb above them and throw sh#t down onto them as a last resort, is clearly a person of very limited (or non-existent) morality, intelligence, maturity, and general mental health. And I doubt any of those traits improved much, even after 25 years. Associating with those types seems beneath them to me, even if it's just to get an apology.
A feature on Wings of Steel in a climbing rag (as someone else mentioned Alpinist would be a good target, because they actually publish in-depth, high-quality articles that are targetted at people who don't climb wearing beanies) would be a good idea, however. Give a history of the climb and the controversy with a modern perspective on things from PTPP and Ammon. Maybe one of them could write it and submit it?
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WBraun
climber
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You know, when I first met Richard and Mark I had just come out of the shower and they were on their way to that meeting with the "Valley Locals" and Sar guys. I didn't know about no meeting. I've been hearing before that about some guys going on El Cap to do some route in a way they disagreed. Sh#t, people here at times disagreed with how you pick your nose, so it was nothing new to me.
There they were, heh (Richard and Mark)? Interesting ...... these are the guys I've been hearing about?
They asked me what I thought. I told them "Maybe .... if you're getting so much flack from these guys maybe do something else? I don't know, it was just an idea, a thought, sort of a suggestion. Not that it was the right thing to do or such. They seriously considered that option, and I felt bad that they had to even consider this. They left for that meeting and I left.
With all that flack, me, I would have told them to f*#k off, shove it up their asses. But whatever, they needed to call their own shots.
Then the chopping and shitting happened. Huh? I thought. WTF was that all about? Those dumb ass fools (the shitters) just made it 1000 times worst for themselves . That drew the straw I guess for Richard and Mark, screw these idiots and punks, we're going for it now no matter what and no holds barred. I don't blame them. Kind of a very low blow cheap shot only worst. I couldn't believe something like that would of happened. I figured Richard and Mark would just have done their route and everyone else who didn't like it would have just kept ranting and raving and this bullshit would have just faded away over time. Guess it didn't go that way huh ......?
I saw all those haul bags when I stopped to look from the road at times. Yikes! that was a lot of sh#t man and I knew from experience that this was a hell of a lot of work for these guys. Whatever man, their thing and their up there interesting though, as the this was the latest soap opera going. You know how the local life has it's own drama.
Man you climbing people sure get into this stuff, super passionate .......
And for your information Richard about that analogy about the car thing. I came back from the Lodge one night and some probably drunk idiot did a number on the front and back windows of my car, hahaha. Whoever did it (knocked both of em out) probably had seen enough of my piece of sh#t looking car. Bridwell lent me his car to go to the junk yard and buy replacements. I barely had any money in those days. The perpetrator? f*#k if I know. It's been 30 some years maybe I should start an investigation? Now don't start jumping to the conclusion that this parallels the shitting and chopping.
Damn? how you guys write these long winded pieces all the time?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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hey werner,
i went bouldering again today. just me and my wife. it was KILLER.
nobody has ever sh#t on y crash pad, and if anyone ever does, i'll take a f*#king crowbar to their head.
i'm just sayin'.....fair warning.
seriously...this topic epitomizes the phrase "pointless". you may as well start a new one concerning robbins and DL on the WOEML. only, harding would never bother to post up...the WoS guys need to get a fukkin' clue and take a page from harding's playbook.
GET OVER IT, BOYS. IT'S 2006. GO DO A CLIMB OR SOMETHING. YOUR SOULS ARE NOT GOING TO BE REDEEMED ON THE INTERNET. AND THE FACT THAT YOU KEEP COMING BACK HERE IS A SURE INDICADION THAT YOUR SOULS ARE IN NEED OF REDEMPTION!
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Jingy
Social climber
Flatland, Ca
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Not that I have any say in any of this, seeing how this all went down way before I stumbled onto the scene.
Just looked into this matter a bit and found something that made me question some of what I have read.
madbolter. Went to your website, or what I believe to be your site.
You give some anecdotal postings to prove some of the types of turmoil you have gone through since 1982.
On your site I picked a few things, maybe out of context, correct me if I'm wrong:
In '82, you and your friend went to YNP to do a first ascent on El Cap. This was both of your first route on El Cap. (if this is the first route on El Cap, why not do some of the classics to establish your props?)
"We did many routes in SoCal that were much harder than anything you found established on El Cap." (So, you did stick around after the 39 days to try out some other stuff, and just dominated totally?)
You were scorned by the local SAR team of climbers from the start. You were threatened, and shat on from above.
The SAR team slandered you, calling your route a "bolt ladder" and something about 1000 bolts to Horse Chute. you were bashed in the mags and in all print media, worldwide.
OK, I got a handle on that.
I looked through some of your photos to see something leap off the page at me, and the timing didn't track.
There is a photo of your Sea of Dreams rack with your buddy... wearing a t-shirt that had "Bolt Masters" printed on it. On this page you talk about the route in the past tense, which leads me to believe that this photo was taken after the event. You state that "WE knew the route was not a bolt/rivet ladder, despite decades of lies about it.". (Even back then? Despite decades of...?)
You have given many links to others views on the subject. The first link I looked at had a post from HalHammer, in which he claims to know the two of you. He describes "Basically they picked a line worse than the start of WFLT or any of Harding's other exploits and drilled as was needed to link the features. Technically the stuff is A4-A5 because of the length of the falls if you did fall. Instead of rivet ladders, they put in bat hook holes. There would be 10 holes in a row then a bolt for example through the drilled parts." This struck me as kind of odd.
I once or twice saw a video of a dude doing an A5 route. When he got to the top, he dropped his backpack, which zippered all pieces he had placed, all the way to the bottom. I'm sure we've all seen the video, and barring modern editing techniques, while watching this video I never saw the guy drill anything. Not once.
Could the piece of rock you decided to travel have been climbed without the drilling?
If what HalHammer says is true... well I hate to say it... But......
At least the "teenager" who read your writings think of you as heroes.
Jingy
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I asked LEB (Lois), as an impartial observer to look at this WOS thing.
(she is a non climber and visits our forum regularly, asking lots of pertinent questions regarding our culture)
Lois suggested:
"How about this. What if the "poopers" got together and bought brand new gear of at least as good quality plus interest (as that which they despoiled) and sent it to the "poopees" with an anonymous but contrite note saying they were sorry and that they officially admit they were wrong. The poopees could then post the anonymous note on the internet - for all to read - and thus they could be formally vindicated.
The poopers would remain the climbing icons that they were and no one's world or heros would be have to be shattered. Best of all, no one or no ones would have to climb though the mud (or poop) and then fall on his sword for some stupid, emotional act of his youth. Everyone could then go about his life and worry about REAL problems like the *real* children who are in the middle east getting killed - on both sides of the conflict. I bet some of them would gladly trade a little poop on their gear to get their life back again."
and Lois then said:
" - how come no one is commenting on my proposed "solution" to this problem. I am serious here. I am not "trolling," as you all are want to say say. What do people think of my approach? Would a public but anonymous apology along with restitution of damanges (with interest) be enough? Would it be a compromise between allowing the aggrieved parties to be vindicated while permitting the other parties to maintain their dignity and not have to crawl through the mud in public for something they did 25 years ago?
Is this a reasonable compromise? Does the idea have any merit? Why or why not? Could people please comment? If it has some merit, please say so. If it is a stupid idea, please tell me why it would not work? Perhaps other people who also falsely condemned the "poopees" and past harsh judgement could even contribute (make donations) to funding the cost of the equipment (which is now just a symbol, at this point of sincere intent as well as restitution/responsibility) so the original 3 poopers, as it were, do not have to shoulder the entire cost of replacing expensive equipment which they damaged."
OK Lois,
i suggested you put your impartial eyes to the task.
you did and asked for a response.
-probably the wings guys are the ones to best respond to any novel ideas.
landgolier has said it pretty straight: asking them what it is they really want, in the end.
to me your idea cracks the pressure in a somewhat constructive way.
i still have the impression that this is not limited to the perpetrators of misinformation and vandalism.
i think richard and mark also want some amends made for the total cultural absorption and reflection of the mis-representation of their effort. my earliest posts referenced this, perhaps not so clearly.
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elcapfool
Big Wall climber
hiding in plain sight
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Two problems with that solution:
The gear wasn't destroyed, just soiled.
And the person responsible is not sorry, and would do it again.
I've been hit by a mud falcon, and woken up to a golden shower. The shower wasn't an accident, as I could hear the wizzer laughing histerically.
I got over it in less than 25 minutes.
Matt hit the nail on the head when he said it isn't about the hard hooking, it's about upsetting the community.
That's it from me, I am done with this topic.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Thanks Lois,
I'd like to see this thing healed and resolved.
I've responded to Lois on Karl's thread and to avoid un necessary duplication and cross posting, I'll suggest to anyone wishing to investigate solutions just check that out:
My response and suggested course of solution is dated aug 6 at 8:45 am
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=233119&f=0&b=0#msg233424
Good luck all.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Mark and Richard - Lois states the bottom line perfectly above. Please answer that question!
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