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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jan 13, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
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Can't take everyone to Africa anyway. But videos can transport people to far away places they would never get to.
Yup, life expectancy for that guy....I don't know. But he is learning things about those animals that I would never be able to. And then he tells us... He is free soloing in his own way. Personally I admire that, but would never do something like he is doing.
Getting off track though. The same thing could be done, IS DONE, for whales and dolphins and far less hazardous. Not quite as made for TV, but very cool none the less. Scammon's Lagoon.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jan 13, 2014 - 03:21pm PT
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I understand about kids seeing things and learning. I took my first deer years ago with a Model 1894 Winchester 30-30 as a teen. I got chickens years ago just to show my kids where the eggs and meat come from. But, when Killer whales start killing off their trainers, don't you think they are giving us some kind of message? Not on purpose but just coincidentally?
edit: Maybe it is on purpose. I sure as H#ll don't know.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Jan 13, 2014 - 04:18pm PT
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Ron, with all due respect, you're trying to compare apples with jellyfish.
Bears don't need compassion. Bears live in the wilderness and fight the elements, and the marauding of an insatiable mankind, for daily survival.
Compassion wouldn't serve a bear. (Although if you knew the truth about Treadwell's frustration with a failed acting career, you might suspect the bears did have compassion for him.)
Humans, on the other hand, seem to thrive where compassion is prevalent. Do you know about the ASPCA?
"On April 10, 1866, the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (ASPCA) was founded in New York City by philanthropist and diplomat Henry Bergh, 54.
In 1863, Bergh had been appointed by President Abraham Lincoln to a diplomatic post at the Russian court of Czar Alexander II. It was there that he was horrified to witness work horses beaten by their peasant drivers. En route back to America, a June 1865 visit to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals in London awakened his determination to secure a charter not only to incorporate the ASPCA but to exercise the power to arrest and prosecute violators of the law.
Back in New York, Bergh pleaded on behalf of "these mute servants of mankind" at a February 8, 1866, meeting at Clinton Hall. He argued that protecting animals was an issue that crossed party lines and class boundaries. "This is a matter purely of conscience; it has no perplexing side issues," he said. "It is a moral question in all its aspects." The speech prompted a number of dignitaries to sign his "Declaration of the Rights of Animals."
Bergh's impassioned accounts of the horrors inflicted on animals convinced the New York State legislature to pass the charter incorporating the ASPCA on April 10, 1866. Nine days later, the first effective anti-cruelty law in the United States was passed, allowing the ASPCA to investigate complaints of animal cruelty and to make arrests.
Bergh was a hands-on reformer, becoming a familiar sight on the streets and in the courtrooms of New York. He regularly inspected slaughter houses, worked with police to close down dog- and rat-fighting pits and lectured in schools and to adult societies. In 1867, the ASPCA established and operated the nation's first ambulance for horses.
As the pioneer and innovator of the humane movement, the ASPCA quickly became the model for more than 25 other humane organizations in the United States and Canada. And by the time Bergh died in 1888, 37 of the 38 states in the Union had passed anti-cruelty laws.
Bergh’s dramatic street rescues of mistreated horses and livestock served as a model for those trying to protect abused children. After Mary Ellen McCormack, 9, was found tied to a bed and brutally beaten by her foster parents in 1874, activists founded the New York Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. Bergh served as one of the group’s first vice presidents."
Ironic that it took the formation of the ASPCA before we were even willing to save our own children from abuse, huh?
Returning healthy whales and dolphins to the wild is just the next step in our journey as compassionate human beings.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Jan 13, 2014 - 05:35pm PT
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"I turned loose my amazon parrot Max yesterday..."
That got me laughing. Max knows a good thing when she sees it.;-)
I've worked with rehabbing wildlife and I've worked with wild animal trainers since the Valdez oil spill in '89, and am very familiar with all of these arguments.
Very few of SeaWorld's dolphins and whales are captive-born. Either the animals won't breed in captivity, or the newborns die. I'm all for captive breeding programs of endangered species, but I think you know that's not what we're talking about here, right?
It doesn't take a released dolphin long to "remember" how to feed itself. Nor does it take a released whale long to do the same. If they are aided in finding an accepting pod (or even their home pod), then they return to the wild without a problem. There are exceptions, and those need to be treated accordingly.
What the military does with dolphins planting/finding mines is...well...I just love how we start wars and then think it's the duty of all of these "inferior species" to fight for us. And die for us. And all the while we're killing them with purse seine nets and long-line fishing, not to mention slaughtering them by the tens of thousands to use as shark-bait in Peru. Sorry...thread drift.
The point is, Ron, we are abusing them keeping them in captivity the way we do. I've seen it first hand. The zoo system of the USA is undergoing drastic changes to accommodate the physical and psychological needs of the animals; our captive marine mammal system needs to do the same.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Jan 13, 2014 - 05:37pm PT
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+1 for L
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
san diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
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Death Returns to Taiji: 24 Bottlenose Dolphins Butchered at the Cove
The deaths represent the largest one-day kill since late November, when 54 striped dolphins were slaughtered.
January 10, 2014 By Salvatore Cardoni
Sal holds a Political Science degree from the George Washington University. He's written about all things environment since 2007.
full biofollow me
Another day, another senseless dolphin slaughter in Taiji, Japan.
The waters of the village’s notorious inlet, spotlighted in 2009 by the Oscar-winning documentary The Cove, ran red with blood yesterday as local fishermen killed 24 bottlenose dolphins.
“Many of these dolphins suffered terribly for a great length of time before actually dying,” says Melissa Sehgal, senior leader for Sea Shepherd’s Cove Guardian campaign, from the ground in Taiji. She leads a team of 12 volunteers that monitor the six-month drive hunt, which involves everything from counting the dead to helming cameras that live-stream the killings.
The 24 dolphin deaths represent the largest one-day kill since Nov. 23, 2013, when 54 striped dolphins were slaughtered, she says. A total of 459 dolphins have been killed this season.
Airlines Might Just Hold the Secret to Ending Dolphin Captures at the Cove
Each year beginning Sept. 1 and ending sometime in March, around 30 fishermen from the small town, population 2,000, lure luckless pods of whales and dolphins from the open ocean into a narrow bay bordered by steep, rocky cliffs. There, they separate the younger ones worth selling to aquariums in Japan and around the world.
The rest are impaled with harpoons and butchered. Their toxic, mercury-rich meat is then sent to dining tables across East Asia.
Prior to the release of the film, the town’s fishermen were annually killing around 1,600 dolphins, a fraction of the country’s annual quota of 20,000 dolphins and small whales, such as pilot whales.
But the worldwide media exposure that surged in the wake of the Academy Award and increased pressure from activist organizations such as Sea Shepherd and Cove star Ric O’Barry’s Save Japan Dolphins combined to lower the kill count each subsequent season. During the 2012–2013 season, roughly 900 dolphins were killed.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Jan 14, 2014 - 01:34am PT
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I prefer large nets to pursue the beasts.
That is how we rounded them up off the La Moskitia coast.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Jan 14, 2014 - 09:02am PT
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"So L,, realizing that the details of these captives are learned because they are captive, do you not think some in captivity isnt a good thing at all?"
Ron, I used to think the public needed to be exposed to live dolphins and whales in order to relate to them, to see how amazing and beautiful they were, to see that they were worth saving even though they were so different from us. In that context, I thought a few live captives were worth the trauma for the good of the whole.
I don't feel that way anymore.
There are so many cruelty-free options for people to experience marine mammals today: fabulous documentaries, whale-watching tours, school programs, live-cams, wild dolphin/whale interaction retreats, etc. There's no longer a reason to incarcerate these ocean-roaming, free-spirited beings, especially for our own perverse entertainment.
I think you'll agree, Ron, that throughout our history, humankind has done reprehensible and horrifying things...and some of it, like the Nazi experiments on captive Jews during the war, has produced valuable medical information.
But once we knew better (or in the case of the Jews, found out about it), we did better. We don't allow such behavior towards humans today, even for the great god "Science". And as we continue to evolve into a conscious, compassionate race, we'll look with horror at what we've done to dolphins, whales, chimps, dogs, cats, and all the other "inferior species" we use without compunction.
So no, I don't believe there's ever a reason to incarcerate healthy marine mammals today. Not for behavioral statistics. Not for entertainment. Besides, captive animals behave quite differently than those in the wild. We're monitoring the behavior of inmates, not dolphins. And as someone up-thread pointed out...the people getting the grant money are really the only winners in that deal.
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frank wyman
Mountain climber
montana
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Jan 14, 2014 - 10:34am PT
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On a lighter side, I went to sea world long ago and the Orca show was about to begin. the first 10 rows are clearly marked "WET AREA" so we sat in about row 12 or so. Just before it started a bus load of Japanese with really expensive cammeras and video stuff came in and were overjoyed that they could find seats so close to the pool. Well...a couple of minutes into the peformance...good old Shamoo...Came up out of the water and...Did a huge back-flop...Sent a small tidal wave over them, Drenching them completely, I should not have laughed...But I did...Good old Shamoo...Payback? or revenge? or just having a little fun?...
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Jan 14, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
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I find it interesting that the Scimitar Horned Oryx, Addax, and Pere David Deer, are extinct in the wild but only found on private reserves.
Glad we caught a few to preserve the species. Maybe we should open the gates and get rid of them?
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Jan 14, 2014 - 03:01pm PT
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I do find it interesting that Karen decides to try and delegitimize comments from folks who have actually netted dolphins and worked with them.
Versus a conversation on the agenda she has.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Jan 14, 2014 - 03:06pm PT
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Ron, yup! I hope those programs succeed!
I didn't want to bore the masses with wildlife reintroduction knowledge and the new laws in the USA threatening certain critically endangered species that have little value to a ranch/farm now.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Jan 14, 2014 - 03:15pm PT
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Ron-
I have always wondered why the BLM will not get rid of the feral horses and manage a Bison population in areas they occurred.
They are a native species and if successful a season could be opened, versus the absurd money we spend on feral horse roundups and upkeep because we can't butcher them.
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Jan 14, 2014 - 04:06pm PT
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"On a lighter side, I went to sea world long ago and the Orca show was about to begin..."
Frank, I saw the same thing happen in Orlando. But I think it was a busload of Midwesterners.
I laughed too...and felt really horrible about it. ;-)
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
san diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2014 - 09:27am PT
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I love this L,
"There are so many cruelty-free options for people to experience marine mammals today: fabulous documentaries, whale-watching tours, school programs, live-cams, wild dolphin/whale interaction retreats, etc. There's no longer a reason to incarcerate these ocean-roaming, free-spirited beings, especially for our own perverse entertainment.
I think you'll agree, Ron, that throughout our history, humankind has done reprehensible and horrifying things...and some of it, like the Nazi experiments on captive Jews during the war, has produced valuable medical information.
But once we knew better (or in the case of the Jews, found out about it), we did better. We don't allow such behavior towards humans today, even for the great god "Science". And as we continue to evolve into a conscious, compassionate race, we'll look with horror at what we've done to dolphins, whales, chimps, dogs, cats, and all the other "inferior species" we use without compunction.
So no, I don't believe there's ever a reason to incarcerate healthy marine mammals today. Not for behavioral statistics. Not for entertainment. Besides, captive animals behave quite differently than those in the wild. We're monitoring the behavior of inmates, not dolphins. And as someone up-thread pointed out...the people getting the grant money are really the only winners in that deal."
Locker, I'm sorry for the tardy response.
I am in Todos Santos on a surf trip. We have seen lots of Humpback whales and dolphins. It is so great seeing them in the wild, swimming and jumping.
I don't think if you tripled the size of the pools they are kept prisoners in it would be much better. These animals travel 100 miles per day.
Some people are proposing that the already captive whales and dolphins are moved to the real
ocean with nets keeping them in. The current captives will have a hard time in the wild because they are on tons of antibiotics and have not been in the wild for a long time.
Hopefully they will do okay and can eventually be set free.
TRICKS FOR FOOD IS OVER!!!
Don't worry SeaWorld will do okay once they figure out new ways to make $$$$ without enslaving intelligent beings to a life of servitude.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 15, 2014 - 09:55am PT
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I've never been to any of the Seaworld. Ever. And won't ever go there. It's damned distasteful to see animals like that. For family dudes and dudettes, I found that one of THE best family So Cal destinations is the La Brea Tar Pits. Great family times, take your kids there and they learn so much more than the false truth told by Sea World.
Russ said: "If you fly SouthWest to your sea animal love-fest you might as well put a shotgun right in Shamoo's blow-hole. "
LOL!!!!
Ken M said: " I think you need to consider unintended consequences. To a degree, it is like the single issue group supporting mountain lions. They got a law passed that made it illegal to hunt, or really even manage the lions. What's happened? They are wiping out the bighorn sheep, because now their population is not controlled. My point is that there are a lot of moving parts in an ecosystem."
Mt Lions true, bullshit on the Seaworld part. It's a business, not an "ecosystem. Don't support them.
L said: " Ron, we are abusing them keeping them in captivity the way we do. I've seen it first hand." Right on L, no need to see it firsthand, or even watch a vid, anyone can use their brain and come to this conclusion.
PS, so it's clear that I'm a hypocrite (to some, not to me), I've eaten whale meat. More than once. And would do it again. In some countries it's a by-product and sold dirt cheap. Good stuff. As healthy as it gets. mmmmm, Shamuuuuummmmm
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Jan 15, 2014 - 10:09am PT
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On the same topic, check out this documentary on the treatment of elephants in zoos and circuses.
http://youtu.be/9GXW4wB2EyE
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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Jan 15, 2014 - 10:35am PT
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"Some people are proposing that the already captive whales and dolphins are moved to the real ocean with nets keeping them in"
That may work. That's what we did with the sea otters we rescued from the 1989 Exxon-Valdez oil spill, Karen. After we cleaned the godawful oil off of them, we rehabbed them in dry pens, then pools, and finally, once they'd recovered their insulating ability, we put them in the ocean in netted pens in Jackaloff Bay.
They were later transported to areas without oil pollution, and from tagging protocol, we know that many survived.
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