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Beak
Trad climber
Poway
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Jun 19, 2008 - 01:35am PT
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Mighty Hiker,
Lane splitting is legal in California up to 30 miles per hour. I have been riding a 1000cc sport bike (crotch rocket) for several years. I reluctantly split lanes in stop and go conditions on the freeway. Motorcycle engines heat up rapidly if they are not moving. If it is over 80 degrees and you are just sitting there in traffic things get very uncomfortable as the hot air from the engine well up around you.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Jun 19, 2008 - 02:14am PT
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Eric, I was going to respond to your Noise thread but could not find it. If I were to take on that problem I would offer free hearing tests to all the riders at the gate and go from there.
Ken
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 19, 2008 - 02:29am PT
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Rice, caribou and SuperTopo for late supper again tonight. Plumbing project from hell still not finished.
1. Intrusive noise is not appreciated by those not making it.
2. Internet forums assist in the distribution of such useful knowledge to slow learners. Humans are slow learners.
3. Young people and those not having asked many questions of their actions will defend what they will later learn was an error, such as the error of making intrusive noise.
So if you are among the motorcycle crowd (on my list of things to do), or other noise making crowd, consider the interesting alternative of reducing your noise to the lowest technologically achievable level, as a fun project, to evaluate the results. You will enjoy them, as you would otherwise learn after making the noise mistake longer. You will also have more friends among more intelligent people who therefore can benefit you more.
An interesting comparison: Guns make loud, ear damaging, irritating noise. Most shooters have belatedly learned the damage of gun noise, and mitigate it with ear protectors. The more logical and desired solution for the shooter and others in the area, is easily made silencers, which the more intelligent government in Finland encourages among its citizens.
But the idiot, malicious DemocanRepublicrat Regime has made gun silencers generally unlawful, for fear of terrorists behind every Bush, and other illusions. Many Americans have high frequency noise induced hearing loss, a detriment.
Humans are slow learners, especially the Americans. In the future gun silencers will be on every gun, engines will be quiet without power loss, and our era will be the Homer Simpson joke.
Or something like that.
Doug
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 19, 2008 - 08:17am PT
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Yes, that is why I suggested the alternative. The suggestion is adequate. None of them will read this suggestion, but there are things afoot in the universe that made my suggestion worthwhile.
Doug
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 19, 2008 - 09:13am PT
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A friend of mine said that on trips to Africa he has seen silencers for sale right in the airport!
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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Jun 19, 2008 - 10:40am PT
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In "The Vertical World of Yosemite" an article muses about how climbers resented the "hippies" because they were displaced as the lowest life form in the Valley. The sweat stained, unshaved, smelly climber taking up space on the shuttle becomes less loathed as the Harleys rumble by. Most of these beer swilling Bikers resent the State mandating that they wear helmets even though it's for their own good. Many shun wearing protective body armour, instead opting for gloves with no fingers and matching chaps with no bun protection. While you are enjoying this irony, consider free soloing on a sunny day, clad only in shorts, a chalk bag and sticky shoes, your only protection a mental belay provided by your judgment and skill.
To the general public who is the true Outlaw, the Biker with the thundering roar drowning out the garbage trucks and touron buses that is eventually replaced by serenity or the Climber who defaces a National treasure by placing bolts, scrubbing lichen and chalking holds? To the Public all risk takers and alternative lifestyle individuals are scum, meant to be tooled. Consider riding to the Valley, reducing your carbon foot print by getting 40 miles per gallon, paying $10.00 instead of $20.00 entrance fee and fitting 4 bikes into 1 parking space all while doubling your scorn factor
"Live to Ride, Ride to Climb" or live and let live.
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apogee
climber
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Jun 19, 2008 - 01:09pm PT
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When one person's actions or interests have a significant impact on the experience or lives of another, the line is crossed. If you remove the highly subjective element of ethics, loud pipes share this basic reality.
The choice to solo or ride a bike helmetless would seem to be individual choices, and they should be, as long as the individual has the ability to take full financial responsibility if their actions don't work out. (Let alone the emotional trauma that the friends and family get to deal with for a lifetime invalid.)
Loud pipes, tour busses, garbage trucks- all of them impact other peoples experiences, and in my ideal world, none would exist. The difference is that garbage trucks and tour busses serve the needs of a lot of people, and loud pipes serve the needs of the individual.
Live and let live- I wholeheartedly agree. Respect and awareness of others is a part of this credo, too.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Jun 19, 2008 - 02:40pm PT
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We need a "cut and paste" of John Muir riding a Harley through the park.
Bass Lake was put here for bikers, Yosemite is for climbers only.
Besides, no Port-O-San to set on fire inside the park, so WTF, over?
If you timed it right, a well trundeled boulder from the face of the Captain might make it to N.Park Drive just in time to wipe out a herd of clip on pony tail fake biker types, please consider collateral damage.
Harley's are like as#@&%es, everybody has one.
Now put me on a Bonneville or a 441 Victor, and we can talk.
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Wheatus
Social climber
CA
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Jun 19, 2008 - 04:30pm PT
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In my neighborhood the Harley's shake the windows of my house as they pass by.
I remember sleeping up on Leaning Tower and being awakened out of a not so sound sleep by the loud obnoxious burp of Harley exhaust systems.
I know that if your car was as loud as some Harley's the police would give you a fix-it ticket. I got one in the 70's when my exhaust manifold cracked.
Is there anyone in law enforcement out in ST land that knows why Harley's are exempt from noise pollution?
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Jun 19, 2008 - 04:46pm PT
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Wack..... Well stated.
But the noise itself, regardless of its source, is worth considering in technical terms, that which advances society.
Total noise also creates individual/social stress. An armed and less noisy society is a pleasant society.
Airboats and airplanes make the same noise from the same type engine and prop. The many small airplanes in Alaska do not create complaints because they leave the area quickly, reducing the noise time ratio, and mitigating the noise by distance.
Airboats and their operators are held in abject contempt because they move much slower, keeping the loud noise around longer.
If total social stress effects a postal type road rage fad against noisy bikers, among countless human reactions to stress, the message may become more effective. Word of mouth is more pleasant.
Doug
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samg
Trad climber
SLC
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Jun 19, 2008 - 04:57pm PT
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What's interesting here is that motorcycle pipes direct the vast majority of sound backwards where the least danger is, so for loud pipes to be truly effective safety measures they would need to be pointed forward where the greatest danger lies.
Incorrect.
Low frequency sound waves are omnidirectional.
This means that it doesn't matter where the pipe is pointed.
It is physically impossible to locate the direction that a low frequency sound is coming from, meaning that you cannot know whether the loud bike is behind or in front of you. Humans cannot distinguish directionality with low frequencies. If you think you can tell where a low frequency noise is coming from, it is because its resonances are creating harmonics in the upper frequencies from which you can distinguish direction (although that can be deceiving as the sound source and the source of the resonances may be in different locations).
Soundproofing in automobiles will filter out the higher frequencies that could clue you into where the sound is coming from. This is due to simple laws of physics- there is not enough mass available in the soundproofing in most cars to filter out the low end, but it will filter out most of the highs and mids.
Also, whatever highs and mids your car won't filter out are going to be extremely diffuse unless the bike is right next to the car, making directionality almost impossible to determine because of that fact alone.
Worse, it is quite possible that loud low frequency waves could cause the interior of your car to resonate and create harmonics in the upper frequencies from within, making it seem as if the sound was coming from a direction that it is not coming from.
Meaning that yes, the idea that other drivers could know where a motorcycle is from the noise it makes is indeed pure, unadulterated bullsh#t.
You could argue with this until you are blue in the face, but that will not help you overcome the laws of physics.
-Sam
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jun 19, 2008 - 05:04pm PT
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I think Ouch is, as we speak, putting wheels on a sub-woofer.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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Jun 19, 2008 - 08:14pm PT
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Let us not forget the whole notion behind motorcycles, I mean everybody has gotta have a sticht, right?
"Johnny, what are you rebelling against?"
Whatta ya got?
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samg
Trad climber
SLC
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Jun 24, 2008 - 10:25pm PT
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Does it matter that the car and bike are moving at highway speeds? I know it's a mere fraction of the speed of sound, but what about the wind? Will a bike 30 feet in front of the car's driver be more audible than a bike 30 feet behind at 60 mph?
No, it doesn't matter. I could calculate it but it's probably a few milliseconds of difference or most likely, less.
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drgonzo
Trad climber
east bay, CA
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Jun 25, 2008 - 12:31am PT
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Jun 25, 2008 - 01:34am PT
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Wheatus wrote:
"Is there anyone in law enforcement out in ST land that knows why Harley's are exempt from noise pollution?"
Maybe jody or fattrad will give a better answer, but here's what I understand.
Of course there are times cops will strictly enforce the laws for motorcycles, and sometimes even harass them.
But in general cagers are softer targets for the cops. A respectable looking person in a car is perceived as more likely to actually pull over, less likely to ride off after initially stopping, and less likely to assault the cop.
Back to the topic. I expect we have enough laws on this stuff. Probably way too many. But I'd be happy if the noise laws were enforced more.
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Debris Magnet
Mountain climber
San Jose, CA
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Aug 29, 2008 - 04:31pm PT
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First let me preface with the fact that I joined this forum to respond specifically to this thread, but after looking around, I think I'll start coming here more often ;)
I found this thread thanks to one of the fellow members of BARF (http://www.bayarearidersforum.com);. Our own discussion of this is going on here: http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263227.
Being a motorcyclist and an avid hiker and amateur climber, I'm in complete agreement with the majority of everyone in that motorcycles with loud pipes are nothing but a detriment to mine and others enjoyment of parks such as Yosemite.
Some motorcycles are inherently louder than others from the factory, the primary difference being that a v-twin configuration is noticeably louder than a 4-cyl configuration, for several reasons that are beyond the scope of this discussion.
That being said, there is absolutely no reason that any motorcycle with a factory exhaust cannot be ridden reasonably quietly. I have a 2001 Aprilia RSV Mille R, which is a v-twin italian sports bike, and by design, its definitely louder than, for example, my friends 2006 Kawasaki ZX-6R (4cyl bike). That doesn't mean I can't ride it quietly, and not disturb the experience of others in a park, or disturb my neighbors when I come home late at night or leave early.
Its my opinion that the majority of riders who have straight (un-muffled) pipes are weekend riders who will soon either get rid of their bikes due to a wreck or lack of interest, or will convert their bikes back to a quieter system after they realize the fallacy of straight pipes for non-performance reasons. I don't have any empirical data to back this statement up, just several years worth of observation.
In closing, you'll find the majority of responsible riders will agree with this community that loud pipes don't serve any purpose aside from irritation in parks and other similar areas. None of us want a rider (harley or sportsbike) gunning their engines loudly at 3AM or disturbing an ascent any more than everyone here does.
Regards,
Mike
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Captain...or Skully
Big Wall climber
up Yonder (someplace else)
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Aug 29, 2008 - 05:34pm PT
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Duh, Harleys are loud on purpose......
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Aug 29, 2008 - 06:38pm PT
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We're just as annoying (if not more) to the NPS (and the other park users) as the Harley guys.
We want to park our Subarus anywhere we want, make a racket at 1AM rolling into a campground after having some epic on Fairview, and turn Camp 4 into burning man (adding people to sites that aren't registered). And occasionally we get choppered off El Cap because some bumbly didn't want to haul rain gear. And we go marching all over with crash pads and leave chalk everywhere.
Seriously - we're just as much a pain in the ass.
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