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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:07pm PT
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From where I sit the video of Ivan chipping was and is still a whole lot more convincing than a faded seemingly film image of a felled tree with no one in it, let alone the accused.
No doubt this is the interwebz and all sorts of fake stuff will fly and the outrage will continue, but common decency suggests we employ some basic jurisprudence, "innocent until proven guilty" by a preponderance of the evidence, especially because the real names of real people are being used.
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The Larry
climber
Moab, UT
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
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Instagram.
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in tahoe city
climber
tahoe city, ca
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
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Here are the simple facts. A tree was cut down for a bad reason. The cutter knows he shouldn't have done it, is very remorseful, and seems to have learned lessons about nature and the nature of people. He will likely never do such a thing again. He's done a good job trying to make things right with several of the people to whom this place matters. Sure, express your disappointment, but let's let the people involved move on and end this here and now.
p.s. It was not the massive beauty in the photo that EP posted. It was one that stood next to it; smaller, but no less special.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
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Blizzard, is this out by Bwood?
Land managers will sh#t if you cut any veg, especially riparian veg (willows, alders, etc)... especially without a permit. I don't care how sick the problems are, I avoid climbing in riparian areas and certainly don't cut veg in riparian areas. As long as the soils aren't compacted/eroded, the riparian veg should reestablish in a few years and reclaim the area in 10 years min (based on riparian restoration projects I have been involved in).
The FS does cut trees to reduce fuel loads, but the trees are in dense stands of (usually) lodgepole and/or fir, which grow like weeds. The FS spends years evaluating the impacts a thinning project will have on soil, vegetation, wildlife, etc etc etc. I believe they shoot for ~100 ft2 of basal area per acre. Removing a few white firs from a dense stand has far less impact on wildlife, hydrology, landscape, etc than removing a single juniper from the middle of a desert of granite.
The guys doing the work are well known and experienced so they probably know what they are doing...
Not necessarily. Many of them are smart and/or cool, but as far as I know none of them have actually studied natural science, worked in land management, or could tell a fir from a hemlock.
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Blizzard
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
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In Tahoe city who are you and why remain anonymous? how are you related to the incident? Who is the cutter? Believe me that this place matters to more than several people and he is doing a bad job of making things right by being silent to this discussion. Those guys are lame for cutting that tree and then spraying about it on the internet. I mean how f*#king clueless can you be??? Sh#t i think it is lame that they spray about sending 13s & 14s on self titled blogs. It is only a little bit narcissistic. you know the pursuit of gratification from vanity or the egotistic admiration of ones own physical/mental attributes. or cutting a tree to get a picture of you sending your proj. Thanks for your input though.
-Bruce McIntosh
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:30pm PT
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The cutter thread....reminds me of the shitter thread, the one that went on forever.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:39pm PT
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donini, why do you hate trees?
FWIW... new account, single post...
Here are the simple facts. A tree was cut down for a bad reason. The cutter knows he shouldn't have done it, is very remorseful, and seems to have learned lessons about nature and the nature of people. He will likely never do such a thing again. He's done a good job trying to make things right with several of the people to whom this place matters. Sure, express your disappointment, but let's let the people involved move on and end this here and now.
p.s. It was not the massive beauty in the photo that EP posted. It was one that stood next to it; smaller, but no less special.
I'm guessing that is as close to an apology as we will get... due to legal considerations and such. Wish they hadn't thrown in the "likely" part. It really ain't that hard to learn a bit about the natural world and avoid these atrocities... hell, I did.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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Here are the simple facts. A tree was cut down for a bad reason. The cutter knows he shouldn't have done it, is very remorseful, and seems to have learned lessons about nature and the nature of people. He will likely never do such a thing again. He's done a good job trying to make things right with several of the people to whom this place matters. Sure, express your disappointment, but let's let the people involved move on and end this here and now.
if it was any other user besides a high number magazine cool guy you'd all be screaming for prosecution. but it's cool, shrug, no biggie. just a tree. ED: directed at the who f*#king cares tree shuggers here.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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A half-assed explanation on a FB post from someone other than the cutter is NOT an apology.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
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Jim, as you are a past president of the American Alpine Club, it's ironic to note in this thread that hundreds of trees are being cut down right now for the new AAC campground being built at the Gunks.
I guess it's ok for some people to cut down trees for climbing.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
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I never said I thought it was an acceptable apology... or an apology at all. I said it was likely the closest we will get.
I think it was an appallingly ignorant thing to do, regardless of who did it. As far as high number magazine "cool" guys... pfft, some of us have barely even cracked a mag in 10 years and couldn't care less about the egos of the sport, until they start impacting our shared resources.
Nobody is beyond education (except chuff, Rong, and Dr. Al Siding). Hopefully they learn from this and stop treating outdoor crags like just another gym where sick proj's and photo ops are all that matter... or stay in the gym.
I have helped developed a reasonable number of areas from Colorado to California, Canada to SoCal. I have been toying with the idea of putting together some guidelines for more ecologically sound development... how to id important lichens, tree species, riparian vegetation, sensitive soils, erosion potential... eh, fukit, nobody cares.
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Deekaid
climber
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Oct 18, 2013 - 12:58pm PT
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dropline I am sure it is just that black and white
yeah nice apology... they probably wear skinny jeans with white belts and white sunglasses
sick send
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 01:09pm PT
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2 move boulder problems are rad.
Meanwhile, anyone who pays for a Heavenly, Kirkwood, Breckenridge, Canyons or any of the other Vail owned resorts is doing far more damage. But at least that damage is (usually) being evaluated and not just done on some whim. Plus everyone knows the importance of jobs and the economy!
Fear not... soon crags will get special use permits and managed just like ski resorts. A day pass and lift up to the crags: $20
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 18, 2013 - 01:14pm PT
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Wait, this was for a photo op? not even to clean the route or whatever? A f'ing tree for a lousy picture? Seriously? This is the nature of sponsored climbers? The industry? WTF is happening?
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Oct 18, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
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None of it is black and white.
Historically, scenically, and culturally there may be differences between the tree which is the subject of this thread and the AAC trees being cut down currently, but ecologically there is little, if any, difference.
In other words, it's the values we give the different trees, not the intrinsic ecological value of the trees themselves. It upsets us and others that the subject tree was cut down, and it's against the law probably too. But ecologically, it matters not that is was cut down.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 18, 2013 - 01:18pm PT
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How could you even remotely apologize for this? Someone should turn everyone involved in this event into the forest service or authorities, and we should demand that our laws function. Better yet, the chicken sh#t vaginas that are hiding in the shadows right now should just turn themselves in before we just start flipping their cars over whenever we see them at a California crag...
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John M
climber
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Oct 18, 2013 - 01:25pm PT
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Regarding the cutting down of trees for the AAC's new camp I believe that is private property. Not certain, so someone correct me if I am wrong.
There is a difference between what we do on our own property and what we do on public lands.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Oct 18, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
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but ecologically there is little, if any, difference.
Not true. A single tree in the middle of a granite "desert" provides essential refuge for wildlife. Many species eat juniper berries and/or distribute the seeds. The canopy intercepts precipitation, reducing overland runoff. Litter from the tree slows overland runoff, reducing the impacts of erosion below.
How far is the nearest tree? How far is the nearest STANDING juniper? How much litter did that tree produce? Was it the dominant litter producer in the area? Were there any signs of important wildlife? Was it the dominant food producer in the area?
While paving over a dense stand of fir or lodgepole or whatever isn't ideal, as long as the habitat isn't too fragmented the ecological impact is minimal. Removing a giant juniper from a desert of granite has a much bigger ecological impact.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 18, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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I think it was an appallingly ignorant thing to do, regardless of who did it. As far as high number magazine "cool" guys... pfft, some of us have barely even cracked a mag in 10 years and couldn't care less about the egos of the sport, until they start impacting our shared resources.
I believe they've started
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