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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Jul 25, 2013 - 08:22pm PT
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Thanks for asking RyanD. Be my guest.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 25, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
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Elcap:
I never agree with Blahblah, until now.
Blahblah's speculation seems like the most likely scenario to me, route was probably TR'd with the intention of cleaning, finding clipable bolt placements, and then bolting later, or done on a combo of pins and bolts with the pins now gone . . .
Be careful, agreeing with me may mean you're making a big mistake: it'll turn out that Thom Byrne actually did free the route in what was the defining moment of his life, and the retro-bolts are a devastating destruction of what was to be his monument to posterity!
More seriously--I mean absolutely no disrespect to Mr. Byrne, or to Richard Rossiter, who I respect as a guidebook author and route developer. Glad that my at least somewhat specific knowledge of the area and relevant guidebooks could play a little role in solving the mystery of this one, although I think the jury's still out as to what happened until we hear from Mr. B or someone else with first-hand knowledge. I'm hoping and expecting that when the dust clears, everyone will be happy with the result, and I'm looking forward to trying the route within the next couple of weeks.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jul 26, 2013 - 05:08am PT
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I should first say that Iv'e never been to Colorado and as a climber its a real bummer to have to admit so. I have however been to the crags a bit. The most relevant post in the entire thread to me is this one-
Quote Just a little history .....Mission and myself tried freeing this line from the ground up on trad gear in between goes while trying to lead China Doll on gear from the ground WAY back in about 1986 or 1987. This was back in the day when only a hand full of climbers even knew about Dream Canyon. We knew that Kyle Copeland had aided China Doll and we had heard rumors that Thom Byrne had freed this line. While we knew who Thom B. was we never asked him about the route or really questioned the ascent. We just tried to climb it . Same with China Doll. As for the route in question we managed to get up to where you start under clinging and traversing right where we proceeded to be stumped by the lack of gear and the difficult climbing. We reached our high point on the gear that was obviously available at the time and we might have placed 1 piton at our high point to provide a safe way to lower off.
Over the years we never heard of anyone completing this climb except for Thom B.
Here is one old bastards opinion. CW is probably a well like'd and very talented climber. Sounds like he's an all around great guy. I don't know, Iv'e never met the man. Has Archangel ever seen a free ascent? At this point I suspect not but I may be wrong. However, to me thats not the point.
Almost thirty years ago Steve S and Co. tried to repeat the line by going ground up as safely as possible. In between burns on China Doll no less! They bailed unscathed. In my opinion, the current crew should have at least tried to do the same. THIRTY YEARS LATER. Especially given the fact that they climb very well.
The fact is that weather Thom freed the route or not, the climb now sports fourteen bolts and is no more than another outdoor gym route sprayed about all over the world wide web. Not the best message to send to hungry young generations of rock climbers.
Again, just one crusters opinion.
For Thom's sake, I hope he never did free the route.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 26, 2013 - 09:07am PT
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I like how the commentators on MP.com chalk it up to the "narcissism of the 80's."
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jul 26, 2013 - 11:02am PT
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China Doll, (the route right next to Archangel) five letter grades harder, was freed on natural gear not all that long ago after it was first freed using bolts.
Narcissism of the Twenty first century climber I suppose.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Jul 26, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
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I never understood why it wasn't perfectly ok to leave routes as topropes. Gym bolting a route just so you can look cool leading it seems far more narcissistic.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 26, 2013 - 12:15pm PT
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No sh#t eh?
But toproping doesn't show ballz, like the ability to stretch out your reality! We must LEAD to be real men!
But it's easier to be manly with 14 bolts.
CW and MS are extremely experienced, both with long histories of some of the boldest trad ascents done in NA.
And what LONG HISTORIES of the BOLDEST TRAD ASCENTS in NA would that be?
He doesn't sound like the boldest dude in North America to me.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 26, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
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Supertopo's reputation as home of aging never-was wannabees is holding up well in this thread, I see. At least get your facts straight in your spew, I'm embarrassed for some of you.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 26, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
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Way to not answer the question about their long history of the boldest trad in NA son.
We're embarrassed for you Colorado boys too.
Nice spew though.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jul 26, 2013 - 01:05pm PT
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Use Google, you stupid fool. MS has a book out.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Jul 26, 2013 - 01:10pm PT
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Supertopo's reputation as home of aging never-was wannabees is holding up well in this thread, I see.
Yeah, nothing like the current generation sallying forth to prove their mettle with a double digit rack of quickdraws.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 26, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
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Nice one bihilden!
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jul 26, 2013 - 01:23pm PT
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Um, totally not true.
Current generation is crushing all over the place in all styles.
Truth is all the current butt hurt about bolts originated in the 70s and 80s by the same generation that is whining about it now. Go to the UK if you don't like them.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 26, 2013 - 01:28pm PT
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Generations don't change substantially....each one has it's share of doers, whiners, leaders, followers etc., etc.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Jul 26, 2013 - 01:32pm PT
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Yup.
Once it became ok to use a hammer while climbing the results are just a matter of degree.
Some places are and always were hammer free-- the U.S. is not one of those places.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 26, 2013 - 01:55pm PT
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Use Google, you stupid fool. MS has a book out.
Let us know when your balls drop. Google that, son.
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steve s
Trad climber
eldo
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Jul 26, 2013 - 02:29pm PT
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Aloha, As I mentioned in my previous post, Mission and I tried to lead this from the ground up BITD. It did not seem that scary to us on the gear we had in circa 1987 (no alien or lowe balls,maybe some tcu,s). The route had no anchors and we assumed it went to the top as per the style at the time. It had perhaps 1 pin and 1 bolt. We eventually gave up on it. I later went on to put in a number of bolt routes in Dream Canyon but never returned to this route.I believe Richard R. or Bob H. put some anchors in and also the the bolts on the 3rd pitch(1st pitch 5.9 was led bolt free). Bob H. may have also led the pitch in question.
As with the "evolution" of this climbs neighbor,China Doll which eventually got "fully" bolted and free climbed and then later led on gear without clipping the bolts....I predict Archangel will also be led on gear without clipping the bolts(except the anchors).
Ultimately I do not care that it got "fully" bolted for todays "modern hardman" climber, it just would have been nice if Chris W. asked the first ascensionist or did more research and talked to the climbers who put up routes in Dream Canyon or at least stepped up to the plate and tried leading it on gear before proceeding with the bolting.
If Chris W. had talked to the Thom B. and others active in Dream Canyon or had tried to lead it on gear ,at least report that in the route data base. Either way its going to make a good story! Peace and Fuk-nes Steve Sangdahl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jul 26, 2013 - 02:33pm PT
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The entire thread is well summed up by a word from one of the earlier posts in it: "engineered".
But the writing has been on the wall for decades now that 'safety' was going to turn climbing into just another risk-free, suburban pastime. The decades ahead will no doubt see a wave of safety engineering on the countless irresponsible FAs put up around the country in days gone by.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jul 26, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
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My point Joe is this, TR rehearsal or not if there is solid natural gear available use it the first time. Especially when gearing the thing on rappel. There may not be good gear in this case but it sounds like there is and if so, why not give it a good old fashioned go? Its certainly not close to a cutting edge grade.
JLP, nobody posting on this thread is as intelligent, informed, as young, or as cool as you are. You've made that very clear. It takes a true friend like you to cup CW's balls through this process but I suspect he is a big enough boy now to speak (or not) for himself.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 26, 2013 - 02:44pm PT
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The strawman argument that 'this generation' only sport climbs only proves JLP's point. 'This generation' is warming up on the trad projects of 20 years ago.... oh and they stay strong from bouldering, gym climbing, and yeah, sport climbing. Yes, 'your' generation could have learned a few things from modern methods of training.
As far as rock goes, as soon as you sink one bolt, you may as well sew it up. The impact is the same, and you aren't beholden to an arbitrary standard of FA's mood that week. The brits have it right: either bolts are ok or no bolts at all at a given crag.
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