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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 12, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
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Norton,
I know you didn't invite me into this conversation, and I'm about to do the cowardly thing and turn off ST for the weekend, so I can do some climbing.
Nonetheless, I'm sure I won't surprise you by disagreeing with some of your statements.
The threads of ST are full of put-downs of people of faith generally, but of Christians in particular. Just try starting a thread asking how Christians balance their passion for climbing with their love of Christ. The threads quickly filled with mean-spirited and rather hateful responses from non-believers who impolitely told us to take our conversations elsewhere.
I particularly have trouble agreeing with the idea that atheists don't try to convert others to their disbelief in God. The digs, innuendos, arguments and rants about the alleged stupidity of believers speak for themselves.
I've always been skeptical of conspicuous piety, perhaps because too much of my life demonstrates conspicuous vice, but atheists are hardly immune from criticism of that nature. I think the discussions on the last page or two about respecting people while disagreeing with their beliefs represent my personal ideal. Sad to say, neither believers nor disbelievers always succeed at this.
John
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 12, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
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Just try starting a thread asking how Christians balance their passion for climbing with their love of Christ. The threads quickly filled with mean-spirited and rather hateful responses from non-believers who impolitely told us to take our conversations elsewhere.
you are helping my point, John
again, the non believers respond to rather than initiate
an Atheist for example would not start a new thread in order to tell everyone specifically how their non belief balances or enhances their climbing
no where did I disagree that non believers in general respond by mocking, they do
the believers know the responses they will get from prior experience, regardless they proceed as it clearly does not bother them enough
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Jul 12, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
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Norton, but if only it were that simple.
I'd like to believe I live in a democracy where the majority citizens believe it is their duty to upgrade their outdated beliefs. (Which, in the case of Abrahamic religions especially, are clearly exposed by even a modicum of study of world history or world religions, also science.) In the interest of the well-being of their democracy.
Is it not painfully obviously that our current democracy is hobbled by competing ideas and ideologies, many of these outdated? C'mon!
Where is Splitter's duty, or Cragman's duty, or go-B's duty to upgrade from such clearly outdated nonsense?
Yes, respect the right to believe; respect the people or respect the person; but respect the belief that God Jehovah came to earth, mated with a young virgin girl to beget a Son-God? Respect this as a truth-claim? Or respect the ancient belief that this world works according to the sayings of bronze-age prophets? Respect the belief that Elijah REALLY ascended into heaven in a chariot of fire on a whirlwind? Respect this as a truth-claim? C'mon.
On youtube, as you probably already know, there is a US Congressman (Broun, I think, from a red state) who describes evolution if not science as something "straight from the pit of hell." You think Splitter or Cragman disagrees with this political leader's statements? Of course their beliefs - these antiquated beliefs - beget negative effects on the nature, operations and quality of our democracy, our democratic rule. If not beliefs, which are also ideas or idea systems, what else is there to effect a strong democracy?
We can only hope that young people today (inspired by the internet-driven info age) grow up with the interest otherwise value to question beliefs as never before - esp those that pertain to what is, that pertain to facts about how the world works - to challenge those that seem at odds with life experience and science - and last but not least to take it upon themselves as responsible engaged citizens to upgrade those outdated beliefs (like exorcism, like purgatory, like Original Sin) that are clearly hand-me-down superstitious nonsense from superstitious ages and ancestors.
Beliefs matter. They are not inconsequential. It continues to amaze me - on and on and on - how such a fundamental principle of human functioning can be so utterly disregarded, really from all sides.
P.S.,
If you or anyone else would like to count me as a "science believer" (cf: "nonbeliever" or "none"; framing matters, too), indeed a multifarious believer in and of many things, also as an engaged citizen, who has no problem prodding his fellow citzens to upgrade their outdated beliefs, then feel free to do so. In my view such prodding has nothing to do with being mean-spirited or hateful (ref: JELeazarian; such a red herring) and everything to do with pushing, out of passion and concern, for a stronger democracy, more unity, and better performance.
Here, let me say it unequivocally and unapologetically... if you live in my electorate and you have antiquated beliefs, outdated beliefs, then I am going to encourage you - or push and prod you - at every opportunity that's appropriate to upgrade them. So it is written, so let it be done. :)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Jul 12, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
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And for dessert...
here's our Spliter "in Christ" from just yesterday, he was such a busy bee...
"it's a waste of time talking to you people, your spiritually dead. yer choice. this thread is a total waste of time, b'cuz ya made up yer minds long ago, so sad. you will go on to yer reward. the usa is gonna be held much more accountable than S&G, because you have heard it all (the Good News) over and over, yet continue to reject it. Blublocer was wrong and Jennie was right, there are different levels of hell. your place is reserved. been there and wouldn't want anyone to spend one second there, let alone eternity. but you've evidently chose/loved the darkness instead of the light. so be it."
Really, how does this differ from the pablum of head-strong fundamentalist Abrahamic religionists of the Middle East, of Pakistan, e.g., or Afghanistan? Till a majority of Americans get past this archaic nonsense, their democracy will only continue to run around in circles, making a mess of things, getting nothing done.
The cure for perceiving the world and how it works through the Abrahamic lens (verily, a delusion) is... science. The more the better. Starting in kindergarten and working on up, through junior high and high school, that would be optimum. Yes, kids being kids, it probably takes that many years to work it in deeply, to imprint on it. It offers a competing worldview model. It offers a categorically different worldview model. Regarding facts. Regarding truth-claims.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 12, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
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ps. Cragman, what if we all met in person and found out we're all worse than we initially believed each other to be on the internet ? Well
When I've met Cragman (a couple of times now), I found him to be a very decent and upright guy. Of course I wasn't dressed in a Bear hide and climbing in his window!
bluey's a very decent guy as well, but then I didn't try to climb into his window or try to talk him into voting for Obama.
We all have our own opinions to spout here and our own beliefs.
An odd comparison. I've got a neighbor couple, both devout Roman Catholic and very directly involved in the Church's daily operations.
He's very conservative, libertarian in fact. Also very conservative socially.
She's quite liberal politically and socially, strongly supports gay marriage, Obamacare, women's reproductive rights.
I enjoy both their company although he wears on me after a while. I'd trust either of them with my life.
Perish the thought if we all had the SAME belief system.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Jul 12, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
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different strokes! I love you all(yeah right)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 12, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
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Splitter said
you will go on to yer reward.
he is referring to what he believes will happen to those who do NOT believe as he does
and where exactly will the non believers GO?
there are different levels of hell. your place is reserved. been there and wouldn't want anyone to spend one second there, let alone eternity. but you've evidently chose/loved the darkness instead of the light. so be it."
I see........Splitter states that he personally has been to hell
pretty horrible for a "Christian" to see such burning fate for non believers
can you see why the non believers openly mock this kind of forecasting of their death?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Potemkin Village
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Jul 12, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
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Perish the thought if we all had the SAME belief system.
Jesus Christ, we're not talking beliefs as to which is the best sport, climbing or surfing. Or beliefs as to which is the best use of a billion dollars. Here, we are talking about beliefs put forth as facts, truth-claims.
Whether you know it or not, you are the shade under which Abrahamic fundamentalists (perhaps someday armed with a thermonuclear suitcase, or two, or three) take refuge. :(
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Kalimon
Social climber
Ridgway, CO
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Jul 12, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
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He has a great background of picking and making winners.
I'm curious who your ideal candidate would be? Obama is a clear loser. Proven.
Please share.
That is a great question bluering. I voted for Obama and don't see him as a loser by any means. Is he perfect? Of course not . . . he is human and it is politics. The political scene in this country is out of control, don't you agree? We are evolving toward a more viable alternative, slowly and hopefully surely. As for a future candidate, we will have to see. I think the two party system is broken and we get stuck with what it has to offer; perpetuating the status quo for the benefit of the controlling elite.
If I had to imagine a better system, it would probably be a hybridization of capitalism and socialism. I believe we can take care of the inhabitants of this planet, while harmoniously restoring the planets damaged systems. The reality of this happening? Not very likely because it would take such a dramatic shift in consciousness on the part of the small population that controls the vast majority of the planet's material wealth wealth.
Heaven help the fool and I am one of them.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
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That is definitely fact. Blueblocr is not bluering, I've met Blueblocr and the dude has been to my house (also have met Bluering in passing).
ElCap, when did we cross paths? What year? J-Tree?
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Jul 12, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
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I've found renewed faith in Americans recently, thanks ST!
Between planning to climb with some of you, to having a heartfelt conversation with one of you lately, you all seem like a pretty damn good lot.
Cheers, ST! I like you people. If I didn't like you I wouldn't have been talking with you and making friends for ten years!
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Jul 12, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
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right back at you Brandon!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 12, 2013 - 08:52pm PT
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In the long run, we are all in search of the same thing....acceptance and love.
On this we can agree.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 12, 2013 - 09:33pm PT
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Jim, Cragman and myself. We'll each bring Scotch. Mine will also be Laphroagh!
Facelift? But....we've gotta wait till next year?
Cragman, I'll bring some fresh squeezed orange juice for you.
bluey, you gonna be there with your Bud? (just yankin' yer chain)
And I'm OUTTA here for the evening.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 12, 2013 - 10:15pm PT
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Cragman...When are you leaving again...? Wanted to poach another xmas tree out of your yard...RJ
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 12, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
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Claymores...? Found some in my lug soles...RJ
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Jul 12, 2013 - 11:29pm PT
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Cup's wife would kick my ass...Look how cup turned out..Good idea though...RJ
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jul 13, 2013 - 12:12am PT
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Fruity SEZ;
The cure for perceiving the world and how it works through the Abrahamic lens (verily, a delusion) is... science.
How could anyone really believe that "science" can be the end all cure for what ales the earth? When in fact science has produced ALL the problems we see Mother Earth coping
with. I don't see Spiritualality causing a depletion in the ozone and greenhouse gasses. It's science that brought us the production of oil, and plastics, and foams. Then science gave us planes, trains, and automobiles. Along with computers and tv's which we have to ravage the earth of its finite materials. And after we go to the ends of the earth, digging and scraping these materials out. What are we going to do to find more? Cause when everybody is as smart as fruity, everyone will have to have a Hummer and a iPhone, along with anything else man can dream up for his convenience and his wisdom. Come'on brothers and sisters look around and see what's REALLY taking place! Look at the smog in the sky's. Look at all the plastics stuck in our oceans and waterways. Look at all the mountains of unrecycleable trash that we just keep pushing dirt over.And on, and on, and on.. So I ask you "science", where's ur cures?
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jul 13, 2013 - 12:34am PT
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you circle jerks should take it to the politics and religion isle
where reason goes to die
That right there is a quality post.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Jul 13, 2013 - 02:54am PT
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to bring back faith in america we need to bring back the UNIONS!!!
Empower the middle class!!
Incentives for RENEWABLE ENERGY BUSINESSES...HIGH TAXES ON FOSSIL FUEL BUSINESSES WITH A CAP ON PROFITS!!!
Reward businesses that INVEST thier profits by growing JOBS...tax businesses that HOARD profits...
PAY DIRTBAGGERS TO CLIMB ....just joking :) WE WILL CLIMB FOR FREE!!!
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