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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jul 10, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
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The Petzl version without the plastic keeper (first one shown in RGolds post), is very difficult to screw up.
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Dr. Christ
Mountain climber
State of Mine
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Jul 10, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
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I'm confident people can find a way to screw up pretty much ANY equipment, eventually.
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Gene
climber
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Jul 10, 2013 - 07:58pm PT
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poorly-designed equipment.
A couple of thoughts:
Do those plastic holders really do anything? Do they make clipping that much easier? Or are they an unnecessary doo-dad bling accessory? Some dog bones I have seen have very tight loops and require a bit of effort to thread the biner. I ask because KISS matters.
At 12 years of age, Tito would have been starting middle school in September if he were local. He’d be four years shy of being able to drive a car. Lack of competent supervision – complacency – is the cause of his passing. So sad.
g
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jul 10, 2013 - 08:06pm PT
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Do we need to balance the simple convenience needs of many against the deaths of a few?
In the end I guess it just depends on insurance and litigation costs. Seems like one litigation would wipe out any possible profit from such cheap devices.
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Gene
climber
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Jul 11, 2013 - 11:06pm PT
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Those rubber keepers are not needed. Isn’t their purpose to keep the gate of the biner that gets clipped from wobbling? Just sew the dog bone loop tight so that it takes some effort to thread the biner. Done. The keepers are a gimmick – a solution looking for a problem. Am I missing something here?
[Note that the picture has the gizmo on the wrong end of the draw as was pointed out previously. My arrow should be at the other end of the draw.]
Why market a product that is not needed and is just another link in a chain of what could and did go wrong?
g
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 12, 2013 - 12:22am PT
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The following report, posted by daysleeper on UK Climbing and then by bearbreeder over on rc.com, indicates that even when people check for problems they can miss them.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2010/03/04/report-released-on-usfs-rappelling-fatality/
Four experienced people checked this set-up and failed to detect the problem, which is far more obvious than the problem with Tito's draws. The rappeller was killed.
The report goes on to discuss studies highlighting intrinsic perceptual difficulties in detecting unexpected configurations.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jul 12, 2013 - 08:52am PT
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"Inattentional blindness" ...very interesting. If adults performed this poorly I can only guess how a. 12 year old would do.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jul 14, 2013 - 01:31pm PT
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As much as I feel that the adults at the scene should have shown more responsibility, I can't say that I would have been astute enough to notice a 10 year old assembling Tito's draws and then check them critically.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jul 14, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
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They might not have even been assembled on site.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Jul 14, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
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Monolith, true...
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 14, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
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hey there say, rgold...
thank you for sharing...
it is THIS:
...intrinsic perceptual difficulties in detecting unexpected configurations.
THIS is far more common than folks in ANY field, job, sports, household work, AND--the list goes on...
this is very much similar, and on the same trail, as what i was trying to share:
the BRAIN in new, or fast, or even in 'habit' mode, MAY not always
be telling us WHAT we think we heard, or understood (its override, i think it would be, in this case)--or we may even IGNORE something it WANTED to tell us, by falling susceptible to 'OUR overide, as to what we are busy thinking at the time)'...
*added some edit, in case i did not or cannot seem to explain this proper, it is so complex...
hence, the marvels of teamwork, and double-checking (however, double checking is not always going to do it)...
what can DO it, or helps more is:
either TALKING to yourself about anything that WOULD be serious, as you do it, or looking at it from various angles, ahead of time, etc...
*anyone that proof-reads, etc, know how very easy it is for the brain to
see what SHOULD BE THERE, until you do an 'reverse check' and read backward, page up, etc, or, have someone ELSE read it to you, or if you read it OUTLOUD...
we are HUMANs that need VARIOUS safeguards, and even 'un-habit' type ones, thrown in it, on occasions to 'KEEP the brain on alert'...
dear family, please forgive, i have now become part of 'over doing this'...
but i AM A MOMMY AND GRAMMA AND BIG SISTER type, and i love all my
buddies here and all the kids that want to learn...
the BRAIN again, is a marvelous thing--we really are would be nowhere without it, but:
but--we need to understand 'it's GLITCHES'...
take a survey of MANY of the odd mistakes you've done--many times you will wonder, HOW in the world did i DO THAT????? i KNEW better, :O
or, i've done it right, before, all these years...
SOMETHING new or odd, just triggered the brain to 'GLITCH' into
doing an 'OVERRIDE' of 'your judgement' :(
sadly, in climbing, there is no room for mistakes, or time to fix them...
dear family and loved ones... love and prayers to you as you go forward, without your beloved child...
*won't share anymore now, i just saw something very good shared by
rgold...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:49am PT
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Tami, Petzl's answer is
The diagram itself makes little sense, since no one would clip a biner oriented that way and leave it as shown. But we've all seen biners flip around, and there have been various biner failures with the gate blown outwards that suggest this type of orientation might somehow happen. Sewn quickdraw slings with relatively little room in the biner loops probably make it more likely that a biner will stay badly oriented if it manages to get into such a position.
I don't use the rubber thingies, but all my draws are tripled "trad" draws.
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Deekaid
climber
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Jul 24, 2013 - 12:20pm PT
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The keepers make the draw easier to clip when you are pumped so that the biner doesn't flip around as you franticly grab it. They also prevent the biner from re-orienting into a sideload configuration as the rope moves through it. These seem like pretty useful features to me.
As far as Bishyrats' comment I have and do inspect quickdraws because this is nothing new.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 24, 2013 - 12:57pm PT
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I also Richie, that the rubber keepers prevent abrasion at this packed, knot-like junction in the system. A good thing especially when draws are up for a long time or permanent, or in the case of just your ordinary hardware collection, getting a lot of use over a lot of terrain.
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wicoxfreedom
Sport climber
Anoka, MN
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Jul 24, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
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I don't find that the rubber keepers help stabalize any more than a regular sewn dogbone. However, as we've discussed ad nauseum, the emphasis is on the climbers/belayers double checks. As you can read here, I too have had to catch myself mentally getting complacent. Just can't slip up, gotta be dogmatic about it no matter how long we've been at it.
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Deekaid
climber
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Aug 25, 2013 - 11:32pm PT
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it also allows for the use of different sized biners which you might not otherwise be able to use if the dog bone end is sewn .tight
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Deekaid
climber
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Aug 25, 2013 - 11:35pm PT
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no instructions in the packaging sounds like liability to me
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