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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
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HP printers will give the US access to ones printer if looking for children's porno.
Reagan with Meese when he was Gov of CA used undisclosed places that NSA would collect on political activists. Everyone in Santa Monica that had anything to do with anti war movement finally figured it out since they were not getting any monthly bills. 3-4 months after NSA had to figure a better way to hide their tracks. They did.
That was the old days, now they contract the companies [thousands] that provide the service the Gov needs.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
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Laying this at the feet of President Bush is somewhat ridiculous. This one is the Corp. Machine at work, the CEO is irrelevant.
Total bullsh#t. Once charted, funded, and underway the CEO is somewhat irrelevant; but all of this was wholly enabled by the laws authorizing it and those laws are and were entirely owned by BushCo. This is again, why giving - or in the case of BushCo, allowing the Executive to take - more power is perilous business. That crew fostered and leveraged a climate of fear in the wake of 9/11 to do a lot of unsavory, explicitly illegal, and outright treasonous things and this is just another one of those 'things' started illegally and given legal cover after the fact - it's how that crew did business and what kept John Yoo employed.
And hey, it was just part of the neocon's big opportunity to restore the fantasy of a god-given right to white male world supremacy so it was a-ok. How's that worked out so far...?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
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That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
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That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.
hardly
the program was started under the Patriot Act in response to 9/11
congress continues to vote to reauthorize it
all Bush and Obama did was simply sign it into law
as they should do because there would have to be a very good reason for a President to veto a bill that both houses of congress voted on and passed
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
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Healy is correct,give me an idea ,What could Obama have done?
Not a GD thing.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
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You're right. Obama has to do things exactly as Bush would. He has no choice in the matter.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:29pm PT
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But you know (and I know you do), that isn't really what our Congress wanted to write into law. And you know it's a fact that the NSA overstepped it's charter when it went to collect untold volumes of data on US citizens. Their very code of conduct clearly outlines the boundary on US citizens.
Yeah, well the American people, Congress, and the UN were all both under- and mis-informed about a lot of things by BushCo. Now you can claim Jim Sensenbrenner (R. Wi - Patriot Act 'author') and Congress didn't understand the 'charter' (and that's probably why they picked him to introduce the bill), but you can bet your ass it's all authorized and they are not 'overstepping' their charter.
If anything, they are probably behind-the-curve in implementing their charter. As I said, for things to be already built out to the level they are means that charter was explicitly to embark on a 'Manhattan Project'-like push to build out this capability as a strategic element of the defense of the nation. No 'over-stepping' involved, if anything, they're under-stepping the project goals and explicit intent.
Again, if someone sails a nuke-in-a-container into Long Beach, SF or NY Harbor and sets if off in the port you folks are all going to be asking if we were trying hard enough to stop it. I'd personally say they're trying pretty hard and folks just don't like the reality of what that takes and means.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
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what is your point, Chaz?
should Obama have vetoed the bill just so he would not be the same as Bush on that issue?
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:32pm PT
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You should all know by now who the Koch Brothers are:
David baby of Koch Industries' contributions have gone toward achieving legislation one particular defense appropriation. You want to know what it is. Where most of the funding gone to?
Ron I believe you brought up the subject months ago while being on a climb and something to do with a hilo and I responded and you agreed.
2015 FBI will be using the system mostly in the big cities but can still [providing they are interested in you or anyone they want to] can do it anywhere. You or someone overseas CIA takes over.
Maybe Snowden already knows this and believes it is wrong. Think I brought up the subject a while back with the TV show: Person of Interest and what the US will look like in the future[not the story line].
Plus he would know about the plans that we are downsizing our defense to make it more efficient by using more Special Forces units and the Pentagon being used less and the CIA will use rouge contractors like Eric Prince [Blackwater fame] R2 to do the dirty work with low paying a dollar a day mercs from countries in that area ME and using drones made in S. Africa.
All paid by the US taxpayer.
So maybe the more he tells in the following months the more the discussion about why he did it comes to light.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
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That's right. Obama couldn't help it. Bush made him do it.
The president has no authority to stop the program without going to Congress, revealing the scope of its existence and goals, and explicitly asking Congress to shut it down. What are the odds any president would do that once one of them puts the wheels in motion? Zip, nada, none.
The political reality is just as you say: Obama couldn't help it and that's because BushCo both designed it all that way and because what exactly do you propose we do to protect the nation from a terrorist nuke attack in its place (no, there isn't an iPhone app for that).
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
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You are correct he had to please the Republicans, same reason he has not closed Guantanamo Bay like he said he would.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:43pm PT
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Exactly,Healy
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:45pm PT
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The Supreme Court ruled that police officers can take DNA samples without a warrant from people they arrest for serious crimes without violating the Fourth Amendment attention
Last part June 02 13 PBS Evening news
GWEN IFILL: Not whenever you're stopped. So, if you're pulled over by the side of the road and under suspicion of having done something, they can't swab you at the side of the road; you have to be under arrest, in custody?
MARCIA COYLE: Well, if you are arrested or if you are stopped by police on the road, the police can do a search incident to an arrest, or they can -- if they have probable cause to believe that you have committed a crime, they are usually required to get a warrant. But they also can search if they are concerned that their safety is at risk.
Think there will be any abuse of safety?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:47pm PT
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He had no choice but to 'please' republicans on closing Gitmo, republican's made it all but impossible to close both by fear-mongering that our lowly, incapable supermax prisons simply couldn't keep us safe and by enacting laws which attempt to ensure it couldn't be.
Allowing the surveillance program to proceed had nothing to do with 'pleasing' republicans and everything to do with the choice of having to explicitly and publicly exposing it and asking Congress to shut it down with no clear alternative to present for our national defense.
So 'pleasing'? Please...
And again, what do you folks propose we do instead to try and prevent a terrorist nuke attack which is a million times more likely than a Chinese paratrooper landing in LA?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 11, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
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lostinshanghai, don't even mention the new law in NY.
But I digress ...
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jun 11, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
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"He had no choice but to 'please' republicans on closing Gitmo, republican's made it all but impossible to close both by fear-mongering that our lowly, incapable supermax prisons simply couldn't keep us safe and by enacting laws which attempt to ensure it couldn't be."
Obama is Commander in Chief. He can simply order all Guantanamo military personel be transfered elsewhere. Gitmo wouldn't run itself without staff. Obama can do this anytime he wants.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jun 11, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
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What do you folks propose we do instead to try and prevent a terrorist nuke attack ...
Obviously a tough, but valid, question. Personally, I'm of the notion that a bully is hated by more folks on the playground than he is adored.
Imagine the cost of the Afghan war. The untold destruction, civilian lives lost, and emotional scars left on the country. Take the same money spent on bombs, and pour that into the infrastructure of the country. Schools for girls and women, upgraded agriculture infrastructure, etc, etc. Beleive it or not, trillion$ can actually still buy things these days, especially in third-world countries.
Now this might not rid us of the threat of Afghan Taliban. But I'll tell ya, the folks that gained by those schools and infrastructure would sure be on our side. And that goes a long way in the Afghan countryside.
Can you imagine the difference in the world if we did the same to Iraq, instead of bombing it back to the stone age?
I know, I'm high. But we'd better soon realize that any war on this planet is a civil war, and as michael so nicely pointed out above, there's bigger fish to fry than silly wars between ego-filled hawks.
Terrorists with bombs? They are sponsored by states who want to war with us, more than likely due to our ongoing foreign policy of imperialism.
Drones in Yemen anybody?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 11, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
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Obama is Commander in Chief. He can simply order all Guantanamo military personel be transfered elsewhere. Gitmo wouldn't run itself without staff. Obama can do this anytime he wants.
wrong
President Obama soon after inauguration signed an Executive Order to close GITMO, as he said he would do.
Congress refused to allow it to be closed.
If you recall, maybe not, there was a big debate in the Senate about where exactly to transfer the GITMO detainees. The Republicans were screaming those guys were SUCH a threat that they could not be held safely in non-military run prisons.
But really, what exactly do YOU care so much about those guys in GITMO anyway?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Jun 11, 2013 - 07:20pm PT
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A Conservative friend asked the other day,knowing i am a liberal socialist,"When are you going to own it?Economy,security,etc. etc.,When is not going to be Bush's fault"?
You probably know what i said.
Good question?
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