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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Apr 30, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
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No sh#t Ron! nice shot, i just want to punch one of those people, just one.
thank god during my Everest holidays it was more wilderness
trips with few people about. i guess i was lucky.
im more surprised at these top athletic superduper sponser guys would be on the yak route.
obviously convienent acclimatization for a big project.
There is not any rescue or wifi on the east face.
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abrams
Sport climber
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Apr 30, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
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Ladders all over Everest but for some reason none on the Hillary Step?
Sherpa interested in money but does not solve a critical bottleneck which is arguably stealing over a million bucks a day out of their pockets?
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 30, 2013 - 10:40pm PT
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I would love to know the history of the Chamonix guide service. I'll bet there were similar incidents as they organized themselves for the monopoly they have. You can bet if someone trampled over a guide and his client on a route around there, there would be repercussions including from the local gendarmerie.
Chaubet's Histoire de la compagnie des guides de Chamonix, is the standard history. Francoise Loux's ethnographic work on the 20th century is a useful supplement.
But no, there don't seem to have been similar moments during the organization of guides in the Alps. (The Savoyard guides were organized in the early 19th century, but by the post-Napoleonic state. They were under the direction of the commun Syndic.)
Whymper's claim that the Taugwalders hoped to kill him during the descent of the Matterhorn (after the rope had broken), was really shocking in the 1860s.
Rope-crossing and racing up parallel pitches, climbing through or over the ropes of competing parties, and so on, seem pretty common now in many parts of the Alps I've visited. That's part of what seems to be at issue, here, namely whether something like alpine climbing can happen out of the Kuhmbu Valley or whether it will be strictly commercial, platform expedition climbing. WHile would-be alpinists of the future wait for China to finish opening up the north side, with all the unhappiness that could include.
On the other hand, the constant threat of violence (usually of Sahibs against non-European locals) has long been a part of European imperial adventures including the early mountaineering expeditions (into the 20th century). And Native or indigenous guides abandoning or misleading or otherwise undercutting expeditions in polar and arctic regions are pretty common in the literature of the 19th centuries and earlier. But I don't know of any other examples of a commercially organized guide outfit assaulting or threatening to kill "clients" for whatever transgressions.
Whatever happened up there, it seems brutally clear that it wasn't the sort of Camp 4 fistfight that Coz is conjuring up out of the golden haze of memory.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Apr 30, 2013 - 10:55pm PT
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How long till something like this happens on a route like the nose, Colo ice, or Hawaiian waves....
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Apr 30, 2013 - 11:07pm PT
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Madison' version sounds like bullsh#t. I'm not completely buying the Steck trio's version, but Madison's is not believable.
OK, superclimbers and tradesmen don't mix. I'm not interested in Honnald's thrill at passing bivying climbers. But, there's no evidence Steck is that immature. Simone may be a dick, but the Sherpa's f*#ked up.
Too much $$ exchanging hands on the South Col for this not to be resolved. Maybe something good will come of it.
because fixing the Lhotse face demands strict concentration, the 3 climbers continued on to the Lhotse face moving up and to the left of the fixing route
Yeah, Ulli doesn't know anything about climbing that demands script concentration.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Apr 30, 2013 - 11:09pm PT
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hi jim-- pm sent
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MisterE
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2013 - 11:20pm PT
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All them sherpas should get 50 smacks with a wool stick...
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Apr 30, 2013 - 11:28pm PT
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What a crazy story.
So...nobody is allowed on the Nepalese side until the Sherpa's have fixed ropes.
On a mountain as big as Everest, they got so mad at three of the world's best climbers crossing their fixed lines, doing nothing more than being there, because now it is nothing but guided climbers. A huge mountain like that, and no room for anyone else to even be there. Then they are stoned and had their lives threatened.
Steck and partners need to go somewhere else. Everest is now officially ruined.
I read all of the comments on one of those blogs. It was pretty f*#king pitiful.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Apr 30, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
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Thanks klk, for the references and perspective. That is the first time I have heard that Whymper thought the Tauwalters wanted to kill him. I think a big part of the more orderly development in the Alps had to do with strong central governments and well developed legal systems which are totally lacking in Nepal.
Whatever system is worked out for the future, it will depend on the Sherpas and we assume the western guide companies, coming up with the solutions since the Nepalese government has been non functional for many years now with the promise of more of the same (four years for a Constituent Assembly to draft a new non monarchial constitution at which they totally failed, new elections to be held for another such assembly and no guarantee of better results). The judicial system seems to have the most integrity of Nepalese national institutions, so perhaps changing the law or at least the regulations is the route to go.
One thing the Sherpas are unhappy about is the low level of mandatory life insurance, particularly when they see the wealth of the people they risk their lives for. It seems to me it would be a simple process to increase the amount.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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The excerpts from Garrett Madison I posted were taken from Alan Arnette's web page.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Ron, I think the whole enterprise will eventually end up in Sherpa hands just as the Chamonix guide service only allows locals. It might take another generation however. And it would really help if Nepal had a more functional government.
Meanwhile, everyone at base camp now has to use latrines that empty into big plastic containers which are flown out to Kathmandu for proper disposal.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
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"So...nobody is allowed on the Nepalese side until the Sherpa's have fixed ropes.
On a mountain as big as Everest, they got so mad at three of the world's best climbers crossing their fixed lines, doing nothing more than being there, because now it is nothing but guided climbers. A huge mountain like that, and no room for anyone else to even be there. Then they are stoned and had their lives threatened.
Steck and partners need to go somewhere else. Everest is now officially ruined."
BASE104 I tend to agree. And Ueli definitely does as he's said he'll never return to Everest after this incident.
It's disturbing about the claim that after this the Nepalese government will only allow climbing permits AFTER the sherpas have gone up to do the fixed lines. No more fair means or true alpinism ascents on that side. It's for the $75K mountain tourists only to be hauled up the mountain by guiding operations.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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I honestly don't understand why anyone bothers with Everest now. Such a pile of B.S.
Ditto that Tim. It boggles the mind. I seriously do not understand why anyone goes near that mountain any more. There are 1000's of other amazing mountains to climb.
I've got a friend who was there during this whole ordeal. The emails I'm getting make it clear there's a lot of mis-information floating around locally. Personally I don't think there's ever a justification for violence and death-threats regardless of what cultural and etiquette taboos were crossed. The whole situation is totally f*#ked up.
On a side note.. yeah.. why don't they put some ladders up the Hillary Step? They have no problem fixing ladders and ropes all over the rest of the damn mountain. If they want to pull the "safety" card why hold back at the Step?
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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It's crowded. People fight when it gets crowded. Human nature. Natural causes.
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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I've been trying to stay away from this one, but maybe I can add a bit to the discussion by klk and others regarding the comparison of the history of European guiding and the cuurrent situation on Everest. I am aware of one quite well-known example of relatively modern European fisticuffs over "guiding rights" and I have no doubt that there are others that have been forgotten--or purposefully covered up. The example I recall is the "pitch battle" between some Scots from the Creag Dhu club and the local guides (I think it was in Cham, but possibly Zermatt) that occurred when the locals thought (probably correctly) that the Scots were conducting some "under the table" guiding. Even today the rudeness of certain guides bulling their way through parties of other climbers has led to certain minor incidents---I was almost pushed off an easy ridge on the Midi in one such encounter (not intentionally).
klk also says that he isn't aware of any incidents of threats or violence amongst western guides in the Himilaya, but I have dim memories of some pretty sordid goings on involving a South African expedition to Everest a number of years ago, and also one (possibly the same incident)involving a well-known British guide also a few years ago. And, though a different category, there are plenty of stories of quite dramatic--and sometimes violent--internal incidents on any number of non-commercial Himalayan expeditions
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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klk also says that he isn't aware of any incidents of threats or violence amongst western guides in the Himilaya, but I have dim memories of some pretty sordid goings on involving a South African expedition to Everest a number of years ago, and also one (possibly the same incident)involving a well-known British guide also a few years ago. And, though a different category, there are plenty of stories of quite dramatic--and sometimes violent--internal incidents on any number of non-commercial Himalayan expeditions
Perhaps I was unclear-- I am not saying there are no historical examples of violence over routes or guiding in european contexts. A big chunk of ww1 was fought out along the Dolos.
Jan suggested that there had possibly been incidents similar to the current event during the organization of the Chamonix guides. But there don't appear to be any remotely similar incidents in the formation of the guide organizations in the western Alps. That's not entirely surprising, as the context was so different. As Chaubet points out, the organization began in the very early 19th century and was well formalized by the 1820s.
There is, on the other hand, a long tradition of local resistance in imperial contexts, and many of those in the British imperial context are quite famous. Whippings or threats of whippings, and various other kinds of conflict appear to have been at least occasional features of British expeditions, especially, as late as the early 1920s. Porter strikes became something of a ritual.
It would be ridiculous for anyone to suggest that there's never been any incidents of violence or threats between guides and clients, or guides and guides, or whatever, in the Alps or elsewhere. Even on a simple statistical basis, such a claim would be unlikely. But it also doesn't appear sound to suggest that this particular incident is just like jillions of others that have happened in Camp 4 or Cham or, for that matter, on Everest.
I'm not a historian of Everest-- I don't read Mandarin nor do I speak any of the local languages, much less the dialects. Of course, no one who writes on Everest seems to have any basic linguistic competence-- serious historical scholarship on that part of Asia is exceedingly thin.
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crankster
Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Clash of cultures reached the boiling point. Westerner's climbing for recreation while they risk their lives to avoid a life of poverty. It was bound to happen.
Sounds like the Sherpa's didn't like "uppity" superclimber's showing them up. They're used to 7 Summit Seekers slogging up fixed ropes. A few of them need to end up in court.
That said, this would have been avoided if the Steck group stayed clear of the fixed ropes. Can't imagine with their skill they couldn't have cruised by 100 yards away and been gone.
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