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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Feb 17, 2013 - 03:34pm PT
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Institutions and people are never close to perfect and full of flaws. Pedophilia is a horrible crime. I am objecting to condeming all. Yes I know that there have been pedophiles as priests, ministers, teachers, coaches, boy scout leaders, politicians, many occupations and walks of life. They should be brought to justice. Yet I have committed no act that makes me complicit in any of that activity. And I want to see the church continue, clean from that past. Perhaps you feel that the doors of all catholic churches, schools, and charities from each parish, diocese to the vatican should be shuttered and sold for reparations. Catholicism will survive, rich or poor. It has survived many awful times and unholy events. The power does not lie in the gold in Rome.
If you were a supporter of Mussolini, because he made the trains run on time, you would be complicit.
If you were a supporter of Stalin, because he brought order to the fight against the nazis, you would be complicit.
If you were a supporter of Al-Queda, because they bring pious devotion to Islam, you would be complicit.
You ARE a supporter of the church that had, and appears to still have, a policy of protecting pedophiles and fighting against abused children under it's protection.....so why are you not complicit?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Feb 17, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
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Jennie, if the Catholic Church hierarchy were to be found guilty and brought to justice for their crimes of conspiracy, collusion and obstruction of justice, how could that be a bad thing? Such could only be considered a good thing - correct? If this is true the ones most interested in seeing justice through should be the members of the church - correct?
Mr. Kay, I've not posted remarks articulating or implying that the guilty should not be punished or that indictments with portentous evidence should not be prosecuted by the law.
I've expressed, hopefully in a courteous way, my melancholy at observing males go hysterical about sex abuse within the Roman Catholic Church yet communicate very little appertaining to venues in which child sexual abuse manifests itself most.
Child sexual exploitation within that church is revolting and ugly, agreed...
But child mistreatment by Catholic clergy is the tip of the iceberg...
ST discussion reiterating, over and over, year after year, the bombast and histrionics of Catholic demonizing... while passing casually over the great mass of baneful ice below the surface smacks of guilt transfer, I'm sorry.
We want immediate change...researchers at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice claim RCC abuse cases have "steeply declined" after 1985 and that responses to abuse has changed substantially over 50 years, with suspension becoming more common than reinstatement. U.S. law mandates immediate reporting of child abuse allegations. Yes, prosecuting those who shield the culprits is a means...but will prove as difficult as it is with secular cases.
Indicting the entire clergy and/or denigrating innocent lay Catholics for their membership is not civil response.
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steve shea
climber
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Feb 17, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
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As is the public school nonsense you have introduced also extraneous to the discussion. You refuse to accept that supporting the catholic regime is supporting pedophilia. OK,you have it your way. BTW the lastest numbers on catholics have it at about 3.2 billion. There are not even enough students in the US to suffer 100 times the molestation. The Catholic church stands alone in setting the bar for child sex abuse. It has reached almost industrial proportion and stating that fact is unfair to the hierarchy? Yowza!
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 17, 2013 - 06:31pm PT
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Indicting the entire clergy...
How about just indicting the administration (you know, that Pope guy and his buddies) that did the hiding and protecting?
If the same number of Disneyland employees were accused of molesting little boys and the administration protected and hid those employees, would you be standing up for Disney Corp?
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Feb 17, 2013 - 10:03pm PT
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What is not "civil" is an organization that systematically protects and enables child molesters. A membership that does not actively protest this behavior from its leadership is complicit.
Obfuscate, deny, change the subject all you want. This has nothing to do with "catholic hate" or "christian hate," although it would be easier for you if it did. This is about an organization with a corrupt leadership. You cannot see that, or are choosing to not too. Either way, nothing I am going to say is going to change your mind...
With that, I am done with this thread.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 17, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
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Poor picked on worldwide religious majority (christians). Poor picked on majority sect within christianity (catholics). Poor wealthiest religion in the world who enjoys tax breaks while your leaders hide pedophiles and ride around in a golden chariot.
When will the world ever stop picking on you?
Good thing you have religious apologists like jennie.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Feb 17, 2013 - 11:40pm PT
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How about just indicting the administration (you know, that Pope guy and his buddies) that did the hiding and protecting?
Yes, if there's a righteous and well grounded argument against them...
"Indicting the entire clergy and/or denigrating innocent lay Catholics for their membership is not civil response."
"You must be misunderstanding me by a long stretch. I meant ( and stated) that prosecution should be directed at those who are incriminated by evidence. .I'm puzzled where you got that idea.
I discerned you were not proposing the indictment of all clergy from your posts, Mr Kay. The last sentence of my post was a response to some of the clamor and less keen-sighted opinions much earlier in the discussion. I apologize to you for not making that language more clear and specific.
Attempting a rejoinder to an assortment of converse opinions in one statement, a writer risks posting something non-congruous with certain individuals position...in this case yours.
You are right to think a great deal of my criticism is leveled at the entire Catholic congregation, just like I level criticism at the whole Muslim world for not leading the charge against Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. Their tribal defensive posture is indefensible. All Catholics should be demanding prosecution. Don't you agree?
I agree Catholics should insist on prosecution of bona fide offenders...and I believe many of them are...
We could devote a long discussion to the whens and ifs of tribal defensive posture, I suppose. Being prickly and wary is inevitable, when so many on the outside are bellowing for the RCC to be razed to the ground. I believe lay Catholics will require, yes, demand valid and proper reform...the Church no longer presides over a feudal world and rendering unchristian practice in a Christian faith can't work if the devout are vexed and leave.
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steve shea
climber
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Feb 18, 2013 - 08:08am PT
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amen... Religion is a sensitive subject for some individuals. A live wire. Any reasoned and documented accusation cannot possibly be supported and is immediately relegated to conjecture or mean spirited attack. This is the problem with internet forums. Our topic here has been on the front pages for years. Extremely well documented. Being catholic I have strong opinions on this issue. If it were the Mormons I would have no horse in the race but an opinion nonetheless. We are all entitled to that. However blind faith is why so many consider organized religion as appealing to the weak. Not spirituality, organized religion. Spirituality is an entirely different subject.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 18, 2013 - 09:58am PT
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Nobody will demand anything. They'll just feel guilty about it and then get forgiven.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Feb 18, 2013 - 10:00am PT
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This is not a difficult topic for me, a former Catholic who is not disappointed that so much effort and sacrifice went into sending me and my siblings to a parochial school.
"At least we learned to spell parochial and use it in a sentence. That's not something you find in most public ones."
THIS is the BS they gave us, that without the Church we'd be stupid, uneducated lumps like you public schools retards.
The organized religions of the world seem all seem to regard themselves as absolute and correct in all things, not simply doctrine.
When this happens, you need to go with the "comfort" factor of the religion, if you feel the need to share every Sunday and believe in that holy day of the week stuff.
When I feel God is with me and in me 100% of the time, it doesn't matter how anyone else but yourself interprets this feeling or asserts the same feeling. This should be enough to satisfy one. But it is nice to share, isn't it, and this seems to give an even more powerful, a better personal vibe. And this cannot last, because it is of the earth. People will eventually fall out, so there goes your religion, and you are left with egg on your face.
I had Eggs Benedict on Saturday morning. They were extra delicious.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 18, 2013 - 11:18am PT
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Religion is a sensitive subject for some individuals. A live wire. Any reasoned and documented accusation cannot possibly be supported and is immediately relegated to conjecture or mean spirited attack. This is the problem with internet forums.
No, this is the problem with religion, not internet forums. Unless of course forum posters stand up and defend other forum posters they have never met who have been accused of molesting children, and the administrators of those forums who have hidden those molesters from the authorities, simply because they too enjoy posting on internet forums.
Jennie that's a mighty pretentious backstroke there. Your trainers must be proud.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 18, 2013 - 12:37pm PT
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Religions prey on weak-minded and vulnerable people. Catholics, Scientologists, they're all the same. They're Mysterians - they mystify people (and themselves) with ancient languages, made-up words, and the cornerstone of all religions, which is to get people to say they believe something that's totally impossible. Jesus rose from the dead, Mary was a virgin, then later in life suddenly flew up to heaven instead of dying. All religions are full of this stuff. It seems to be a part of every religion, that the members have to accept something as true, that intellectually they know must be false. That, and indoctrinating children with these ideas at the youngest possible age.
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John M
climber
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Feb 18, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
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According to Seamstress the reform has already happened. Such as background checks on all workers and volunteers in the church. How this deals with a corrupt leadership who sends known pedophiles to unsuspecting churches, I don't know.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 18, 2013 - 01:51pm PT
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It deals with the corrupt leadership like a bandaid deals with necrotizing fasciitis.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Feb 18, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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So we have an interesting situation in Los Angeles, with Cardinal Mahoney.
The evidence is now pretty clear, that he orchestrated a cover-up of decades in length, which caused many pedophiles to be enabled, and many children to be assaulted.
However, his cover-up caused this not to be discovered until the Statute of Limitations had run on his crimes.....he is not prosecutable.
He is now retired as Archbishop of LA. He resides in my neighborhood, and attends the Catholic church 1/4 mile from me. He is on his way to Rome, to vote on replacing the Pope.
What is the proper response from Catholics, for others to respect them, or for them to respect themselves? Is it to tolerate Mahoney in their midst? Is it for him to remain one of about 100 leaders of the Church, appointing the next Pope?
Is he who we should see as one of the leaders of Catholicism in America? This is the public face of your faith?
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John M
climber
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Feb 18, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
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Great example Ken. Thanks..
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 18, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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If you can bring yourself to believe in transubstantiation, virgin birth, and zombies I don't think you will have a hard time believing the priests are innocent.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Feb 18, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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If they were good Christians they would stop being pussies and stand up for what is right... but they won't, because they are just catholics.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Feb 18, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
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I believe lay Catholics will require, yes, demand valid and proper reform...
One wonders.... when will this demand manifest itself?
It has...and hopefully will continue to, Dingus. The sharp decline in molestation accusations reflect bishops becoming alarmed about the situation and starting to take preventive measures. Complaints, activism and litigation by lay Catholics have been the effective force.
Even balky bishops who sent corrupt priests to other parishes rather than excommunicate them...did so out of outspoken complaints from their congregations.
The era of unprincipled priests menacing and bullying their flock is in sharp decline.and has been occasioned, in toto, by exertions of lay Catholics.
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John M
climber
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Feb 18, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
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It has...and hopefully will continue to
Meanwhile, priests who helped create the coverup and extend the problem by sending pedophiles to unsuspecting churches continue on and even get to help pick the next pope.
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