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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 20, 2006 - 06:06pm PT
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God loves his children. But if you're not with the program, you burn in hell for eternity. Sorta like being grounded but worse. Well, I love you too "Dad".
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Jun 20, 2006 - 07:00pm PT
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Your replies always come back to what you think, LEB. You don't think this, you don't think that, and then you ask what I think. What I think matters not; if I were the arbiter of justice things might get really crazy. Fortunately, what I believe is not based on feelings, or the meaning of dreams, or what I think is fair and good. It is based on what the Bible says, and I believe it is infallible and yes, Karl, perfect. God did not say, "I'm OK, Your're OK, anything that makes you feel good and self-actualized is cool with me." He said, "I'm Holy and you are not. You are in no condition to stand before me, but I have provided a way that you can be made righteous. There is only one way, and its not hard-I did all the work-, so you can like it or lump it."
Then you ask how its possible that God gave the gospel only to a few of us, forgetting that He gave it originally to some Hebrews whose job was to spread it around. I'm descended from one of the barbarian tribes whom they brought the Gospel to. Why did God choose to call me out of my sin when so many others perish? I don't know. But rather than make me proud it humbles me, it makes me grateful, that the God of all the universe should save myself, when I know I deserve nothing but eternal damnation. Pride? I have nothing whereof to boast, since I am exactly as sinful as everyone else, and it is only by the grace of God that I am saved today. How can I believe in a God who can condemn so many people to damnation? How can I not, when He in His grace has pulled me from that same fate? This is not an inside track, a secret club; we're telling everybody, as fast and earnestly as possible, and there is not one person we wish to exclude. Don't let your own soul perish, LEB, just because something you cannot understand seems unfair to you. The Bible promises that one day we will understand all these things, when we see God face to face. My prayer is that it may be soon.
Karl says that Jesus didn't urge us to read the Scriptures, but He is our example, and He sure used them a lot. When He was tempted of Satan, He used scripture to refute him. When He went at it with the Pharisees He used scripture to confound them. By the way Karl, whatever way they pronounced His name doesn't matter, since it is a name translated into another language. There aren't many other languages in which 'dog' spelled backwards is 'god'. It is just a vissicitude of the language we speak, so whatever sound the Hebrews were using to identify Jesus is irrelevant here. In Isaiah, His name is called Immanuel, also Wonderful, Counselor, Almighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. I don't know how to pronounce any of those in Hebrew, but since English is the language I speak, they mean the world to me in it.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Jun 20, 2006 - 07:11pm PT
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Largo,
What you're missing is that we know we can never achieve perfection and thus we need God's help. Once we die and are resurrected incorruptible, then in a glorified body that has no sin we will be perfect. But not until then. The beauty of redemption is that even now, though I fall into sin constantly, God sees me in a purified state, for Jesus' blood has washed away my sin. "Come now, let us reason together, saith the Lord. Though your sins be scarlet, they shall be as snow. Though they be crimson, they shall be as wool." (may have messed the order up there, sorry, but you get the idea)
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Jun 20, 2006 - 09:05pm PT
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Well put, LEB. The gnostics had this angle down. The God of the Torah and OT actually was a vindictive little snot of a deity and this world was his f*#ked-up creation, reflecting his flaws, which for some reason he chooses to blame on us instead of himself. Beyond him is supposed to be a greater deity, who is likewise somehow absolved of responsibility for letting this place get so out of hand, but who might intervene if we perform Gnostic rituals. This was the only conclusion they could reach, considering how little they really knew about anything back then.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 20, 2006 - 11:21pm PT
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LEB said:"Actually, the reality is that I much prefer service."
Wow! that is awsome Lois. I never would have though anyone here to say that.
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Jun 20, 2006 - 11:22pm PT
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Lois,
Perhaps any concept man has of God is a limited,imperfect one. Therefore, God is infinite, and we shouldn't get hung up on how some had interpreted God.
Certainly your good works are most laudable, and are pleasing to the Lord.
Have you read any Marianne Williamson, or The Course in Miracles? She posits that God is all loving, and when we only see love we are one with God. It sure makes me calmer and happier to listen to her.
Anyway, I try not to get hung up on other's imperfect representations of God.
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Jun 20, 2006 - 11:40pm PT
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It's a surrender of ego and pride, usually in a time of great travail and despair. No wonder it's so hard for many people, in this era of rampant, out of control egos
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 20, 2006 - 11:47pm PT
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"She posits"
Everyone posits, if they offer an opinion.
Their guess is about as valid as your guess.
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Ouch!
climber
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Jun 20, 2006 - 11:53pm PT
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"THAT is the epitome of pride and arrogance."
Not quite. That honor goes to you for saying that to Lois.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 21, 2006 - 12:14am PT
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Yes
Some of the greatest souls always come back to help the fallen.
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Ben Wah
Social climber
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Jun 21, 2006 - 12:26am PT
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Well, it appears that you and I at last understand each other, LEB. You know what I believe and find it repugnant, and you categorically reject it. That is fine; the choice is yours. I have enjoyed our little Q&A, and bear you no ill-will whatsoever. Though this will mean nothing to you, I pray that Almighty God might yet have mercy on your soul.
All the best,
Ben Wah
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Mountain Man
Trad climber
Outer space
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Jun 21, 2006 - 01:25am PT
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May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Jun 21, 2006 - 01:30am PT
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#1-10) You are f*#king braindead.
Welcome to planet dumbf*#k.
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Jun 21, 2006 - 10:29am PT
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There you have it.
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MikeL
climber
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Jun 21, 2006 - 10:49am PT
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Lovesgasoline:
Quit "scratching the surface."
MikeL
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Jun 21, 2006 - 11:33am PT
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This is as deep as you need to go:
_43
When one places life's center of gravity not in life but in the "beyond"—in nothingness—one deprives life of its center of gravity altogether. The great lie of personal immortality destroys all reason, everything natural in the instincts—whatever in the instincts is beneficent and life-promoting or guarantees a future now arouses mistrust. To live so that there is no longer any sense in living, that now becomes the "sense" of life. Why communal sense, why any further gratitude for descent and ancestors, why cooperate or trust; why envisage and promote any common welfare? Just so many "temptations," just so many distractions from the "right path"—for only "one thing is needful."
That everyone as an "immortal soul" has equal rank with everyone else, that in the totality of living beings the "salvation" of every single individual may claim eternal significance, that little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes—such an intensification of every kind of selfishness into the infinite, into the impertinent, cannot be branded with too much contempt. And yet Christianity owes its triumph to this miserable flattery of personal vanity: it was precisely all the failures, all the rebellious-minded, all the less favored, the whole scum and refuse of humanity who were thus won over to it. The "salvation of the soul"—in plain language: "the world revolves around me."
Nietzsche's alternative was an example of personal accountability that he thought would produce a higher order of culture. It's no wonder a lot of climbers like him so much.
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MikeL
climber
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Jun 21, 2006 - 11:41am PT
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Deeper.
MikeL
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cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
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Jun 21, 2006 - 05:33pm PT
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Nah, your turn.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jun 21, 2006 - 06:32pm PT
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This will make 196 postings to this thread. Maybe we should cut it at 200? There can't be much more to say. I haven't read every posting in full, but have had a pretty good look. The discussion seem to boil down to this:
Christian fundamentalists: I believe in god and the bible, and just because I believe I'm ok. You're going to burn, but I'll try to save you. (Variations for other brands of Christianity, and other religions.)
Others: I don't believe, and you can't prove it's true. The reality of how many Christians practice their religion is far from the ideals it espouses. The constant preaching and holier than thou attitude of many fundamentalists is at best annoying and often hypocritical.
Irresistible force v unmoveable object.
The French philosopher and mathematician Blaise Pascal, himself a believer (Catholic), postulated that you could either believe in god, or not. Either way, you could be right, or wrong. If you believed and were right, all was well. If you believed and were wrong (no god), then there were no bad consequences. If you didn't believe, and were right, no problem. If you didn't believe, and were wrong, then you were in trouble. So Pascal recommended the risk-minimizing strategy of believing - but then he had to wrestle with just what to believe.
Anders
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d-know
Trad climber
electric lady land
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Jun 21, 2006 - 07:46pm PT
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holy longwindedness batman! christianity is an outdated political system. it served its purpose well in the past, but it is time to move on. death to the patriarchy will save the world, regurgitating these old world systems only does harm to spiritual collectivness. prepare for the matriarchy.
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