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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 17, 2012 - 04:46am PT
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Some people strive for the light, let themselves go for greater clearity.
Others have their eyes fixed inwards, speaking in tongues and living their lives in silent desperation, waiting for it all to end.
And then there are others again...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 17, 2012 - 08:27am PT
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I try to respect all religions as they all have something good to offer humanity... i love what the Dali llama preaches...What annoys the hell out of me are the poseur chest thumpers and i'm not talking about you spider as i don't know you...Spider....Weren't you murdered by some famous actress..?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 09:31am PT
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Yikes!!
It's gonna take me forever to catch up with this thread.
I had no idea it would do this.
this is a typical chris savage troll. i love jesus pro and con has gotta be the easiest hot-button overworked supertopo subject going. here we have a trollmaster OP and nearly 200 predictable posts in a couple of days, everybody posturing the belief or unbelief we've all become so familiar with, and the OP offering no interaction with the flies he stirred up off what norwegian once so masterfully described as a turd on the lawn of life.
my experience of people who feel strongly about jesus in adulthood is that they have translated certain issues in their personal lives into the christian system of belief and found some important personal support from fellow church members. in short, i think god, religion, jesus are a form of romance, as they have always been. if you really want to discuss this subject, you put more of your cards on the table. in doing so, you expose yourself, and your belief, to a vulnerability which you know is going to be a lot less comfortable than the gladhanding on the church doorstep.
you owe it to supertopo, chris, to be a tad more personal about this--if you're serious about it.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Aug 17, 2012 - 09:37am PT
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You start Tony. Give us an example.
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Aug 17, 2012 - 09:57am PT
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the thing I dislike about most christians is they cant wait to say they are christian and love jesus but never show it in their daily actions. Actions speak louder than words. The next thing I dislike is it seems part of thier duty to judge other people when it specifically states that judgement is god's job alone in the bible. I could go on but if you want people to start taking christianity seriously maybe the actions need to be doing the talking.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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Aug 17, 2012 - 09:58am PT
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Yup. All of them. At least in the US media.
Maybe someone should get out a bit and see what is going on further than their TV screens.
http://www.newrealityinternational.org
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 17, 2012 - 10:39am PT
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Still processing information... so much to do and say.
Thank very much to those who testified. A compilation of the good ones are coming so you don't have to read the whole thread. (Cosmic, Micronut, Batrock, and others, ...wow! You guys have moved me/us.)
It's really hard to have one's faith ridiculed so, if you would, please take the to that other thread where we do that.
Christians, your testimony as per the OP formula has done more to help others understand and respect you.
Thanks to those who have helped provide a positive sound track.
Thanks to those who have repented and deleted their posts.
Thanks for the posts of positive support and respect.
Yes I owe you my own testimony. That is coming later. I gotta rush off to work right now.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 10:40am PT
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that flowchart is a lunker. keep trolling, chris.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 17, 2012 - 10:47am PT
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Thanks to those who have repented and deleted their posts.
amen to them
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micronut
Trad climber
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
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A guy posts a topic asking for testimonies of people's lives. A few respond to the OT. A couple people ask good questions.
150 mean, filthy, self serving posts from dudes who enjoy putting other people down.
Sad. Says something about the core of so many of you guys.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:38pm PT
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please fill me in on the magical underwear. are we talking capilene?
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Aug 17, 2012 - 12:42pm PT
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A guy posts a topic asking for testimonies of people's lives. A few respond to the OT. A couple people ask good questions.
150 mean, filthy, self serving posts from dudes who enjoy putting other people down.
Sad. Says something about the core of so many of you guys.
I totally agree.
WTF!
and I'm totally not Christian. What ever happened to a little bit of respect?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Aug 17, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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Although admittedly people did occasionally climb mountains in the bible, assuming that there's any truth to it
What does that have to do with the muscular christianity movement?
Mormanism places emphasis on the vibrancy, strength, and burliness of JC, eschewing images of Him suffering on the cross, popular in protestant and catholic observances.
klk, a few words perhaps about romanticism and muscular christianity in relation to climbing history? I suppose I assumed adherants to MC didn't necessarily bible-thump but maybe I'm wrong. Those rc pioneers certainly didn't spend their Easter vacations reading the bible! But I'll bet many of them were at least nominally church of england members, some becoming vicars after graduating from Oxford or Cambridge. I'd be curious about the faiths they professed, if any. I remember Eckenstein being treated badly by the alpine club because of his ethnic background by good upstanding church of england upper-class climber/snobs.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 17, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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I wish I could say that the sarcastic insults surprise me, but they don't, partly because I would have been a source of some of them 40 years ago.
I converted and gave myself to Christ in 1974, but my journey started much earlier. If any of you ever heard how you need to pray for unbelieving family members, my life testifies to the truth of that need.
My father was a man of very strong faith that he lived daily. Christianity wasn't just a social club for him; it was life itself.
My mother's family has an even stronger Christian history. Her father was a professor at Euphrates College in Kharpert (now Harput in Turkey). That college was a Christian missionary institution and although my grandfather was educated at the University of Edinburgh, he returned to Turkish Armenia to teach and to minister there. He, along with my mother and the rest of his family, was arrested on April 24, 1915. He was tortured and killed. Obviously, my mother survived although, 97 years later, she still vividly remembers her imprisonment.
My mother and her siblings all believed and lived the Christian life. I have three male first cousins on my mother's side. All have Ph.D.'s -- two in physics and one in molecular biology. All live their Christian faith through youth ministry, publications (one of my cousins edited a French language newspaper for Armenian protestant youth, and later edited a new Armenian language translation of the Bible), and missionary work.
I have two younger sisters who became Christians before they graduated from high school. Then there was me. I grew up going to church and Sunday school, but as I got older, Christianity seemed more and more like a fairy tale for weak minds. By the time I got to Berkeley as a college freshman, I admired the existentialism of Royal Robbins and the climbing lifestyle of Chuck Pratt much more than what I considered to be the outwardly pious and inwardly rotten lives of so many self-proclaimed Christians.
The only problem was that my family and their friends just didn't fit that mold. How could my parents, sisters, and cousins be so intelligent, so selfless, and so believing? More importantly, why did they always have such infuriating serenity when our lives were anything but serene? My dad was a small businessman who was always just a step ahead of the wolves, yet he never seemed to worry much about material prosperity. My mother escaped death twice, saw many people killed by the Turks among whom she lived for twelve years, yet forgave them and grieved when, for example, an earthquake hit Turkey.
The surrender moment came in November of 1974. I was living and working in LA then, and decided to visit Berkeley that weekend for the Big Game (for those unfamiliar with the term, the "Big Game" is the football game between a certain Junior University in Palo Alto and the University of California. It is not the game between U$C and UCLA). Cal lost on a 50-yard field goal with no time left.
As I was driving back on Sunday afternoon, the radio in my car died, so I had several hours of silence alone on I-5. My love life was a mess, I was getting ready to start grad school at UCLA while still working full time, I was reading about feats of former climbing friends like Dale Bard and Vern Clevenger, while I was stuck working weekends, and generally miserable. I desperately wanted the peace that the rest of my family had.
As I was passing the time in silence, I came by a cinder block structure in Kern County on which someone had spray painted graffiti reading "Jesus is the Answer." I always used to ridicule it, e.g. "Yeah. What's the question?" Well on that Sunday afternoon, I knew and gave my life to Him there in my car. My friends -- particularly my closest ones -- saw a big change in me. As my best friend since first grade (and still my best earthly friend other than my wife) said: "Something happened to you. You're different."
I wish I could say that the rest was smooth sailing, but by worldly standards, it most certainly has not been. On other threads, I've described my struggle with depression that cost me my career and, briefly, my freedom, but Christ never deserted me, even when I almost deserted myself.
I know many people disagree with my opinions, but this isn't opinion; it's my experience. Jesus Christ is life, and He offers it freely to any who accept His gift. Do-it-yourself salvation doesn't work, and particularly didn't work for me, because I make a lousy god. While I, like every other Christian on earth, cannot be perfect, I was changed, and continue to change, in ways God leads. Best of all, He gave me a very large measure of His peace, and that peace overcomes the world.
Sorry for the length of this. If anything, I've abridged. Anyone wanting details is more than welcome to send me an email.
Thanks Spider, for starting this thread.
John
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Aug 17, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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I suppose I assumed adherants to MC didn't necessarily bible-thump but maybe I'm wrong. Those rc pioneers certainly didn't spend their Easter vacations reading the bible! But I'll bet many of them were at least nominally church of england members, some becoming vicars after graduating from Oxford or Cambridge. I'd be curious about the faiths they professed, if any. I remember Eckenstein being treated badly by the alpine club because of his ethnic background by good upstanding church of england upper-class climber/snobs.
One of the things Peter Hansen found in his research on the Alpine Club was that Dissenters-- including Evangelicals as well as agnostics --were vastly over represented. That appears to be more broadly true, as well in muscular Christanity movements in GB. But "Biblethumping" as we know it in these United States was not part of the picture. The types of Evangelical Protestantism that are current today in North America barely existed in period Great Britain much less Europe. The early 20th century revivals in Wales were really unusual and seem to have had very little influence on climbing culture. And Fundamentalism (Christian as well as Islamic and Hindu) was a largely 20th century phenomenon.
The fin-de-siecle was a big moment for the emergence of serious alternative religious movements, from Neo-Paganism to Swedenborgianism to various forms of Hinduism and Buddhism imported from Europe and GB's various colonial misadventures. But those currents didn't gain much influence until the 1920s (with the possible exception of the kinds of TIrolian Catholicism that I've been working on).
In GB, most Christians were simply quietly anti-Semitic. (Being loudly anti-Semitic was declasse.) The prejudice was as much ethnic and cultural as theological. Folks like Eckenstein weren't terribly welcome at Cambridge or Oxford, either. Wittgenstein's arrival at C-bridge was a big deal. In the US, the war against Nazism and the publicization of the Holocaust began to make anti-Semitism les acceptable in public discourse, at least in national politics. But it was still common if not dominant. In the US, most historians place the Six Days War as the real turning point after which it became really impolitic to be openly anti-Semitic. Certainly that was the moment in which the more conservative evangelical Christians began to identify in some ways with the State of Israel.
There is a debate in environmental history circles over the relationship between theology and the emergence of environmental activism. High Church Protestants are vastly overrepresented in the US Clubs and movements (i.e., Sierra Club), and evangelicals and fundamentalists are vastly under-represented. How much of that turns on theology and how much is a matter of class and cultural differences is open to debate. But for most of the 20th century folks like Pentecostals, Southern Baptists, and Southern Methodists seem to have been dramatically under-represented in North American mountaineering.
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DMBARN
Trad climber
Modesto
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Aug 17, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
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Having been an observer of these religious threads for many years I have been tempted to join in but have always thought better of it because of the absolute vitriol that usually accompanies so much of them. I’ve had great respect for the Christians who contributed but even some of them become part of the mud slinging and I’m reminded of Franklin’s famous remark about he who lies down with dogs rises with flees. More germane to this thread are Jesus’ words of caution when he said, “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet….” from Matthew 7 (and no, I’m not calling anyone a dog or a pig). Could no one wait for at least a few believers to make their professions before you jumped in? If you recall the “climber nurses” thread there were few non nurses who contributed. But not when it comes to faith. So many of you are so predictable you should be embarrassed.
As for me, I accepted Christ when I was 20 a long time ago. I wasn’t one of those people who had totally screwed up their lives and was at the bottom with no where else to go. Something just wasn’t right and I found myself one night in Church with a friend and found myself looking up when the alter call came. Coming to know Christ can happen in a thousand different ways and that was mine. No bells or whistles, no drama, no tears, just a sense that this felt really right. I had my years of backsliding and realized after far too long that I had wasted precious time. Nothing works better than a Christ centered life (as we as humans can manage it). I’ve never been a really “feely” kind of person. Most of my life has been lived through my thinking process which is why I gravitated toward C.S.Lewis early on and now I listen quite a bit to Ravi Zacharias and Chuck Missler.
Keep this in mind; you have no complaint, criticism or outrage against Christians that the Lord has not had first and with far more justification. He’s also far more articulate in expressing those complaints. Yours are downright petty compared to His. Read the Bible if you want to know his thoughts on the matter. Yet He died for us “While we were still sinners….” (Rom 5:8).
If He can forgive us, then why can’t you? Search your hearts, the law (your conscious) is written there whether you admit it or not. If it doesn’t resonate then you are either lying to yourself or have so hardened your heart over the years you can no longer feel it.
Believe me; I am completely sympathetic to lots of the complaints on this forum. There are things going on in the life of the church that grieve God (and I’m one of them). He will have an answer for those. In the meantime look to Him (Jesus) “for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
If this seems too harsh, well this is a tough crowd is it not? You can handle it.
And like it or not, I am praying for all of you…..
Douglas
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Aug 17, 2012 - 03:37pm PT
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I could go into great detail about my Christian upbringing, The Jesus Movement of SoCal, my coming to Yeshua HaMashiakh (Jesus Christ The Messiah) as my Lord and Savior, my slipping away becoming the Prodigal Son, my redemption through the forgiving grace of Yeshua and coming back to Hashem Adonai Elohim (G_D) and continuing onward, but the details and stories are varied, interesting, and long. So I won't go into all that detail.
However, recently I found a spiritual home where it all seems to come together in the most spiritual, fulfilling, loving, and intellectually sound way. Also recently I have found that I have Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. It all makes sense now. Today I attend a Messianic Judaic Synagogue. I am learning leaps and bounds (in depth meaning I never knew, Hebrew, Davidic dancing, the Feasts, The Torah, honoring Shabbat, etc. etc.) and going way beyond my foundational yet simple Christian Pagan upbringing. We have a surfing Rabbi who is incredibly gifted with deep love and wisdom, knows and raised in the Judaic Faith, knows Hebrew, and knows Yeshua as his personal Lord, Savior, and the promised Messiah.
The Judeo-Christian Faith are really one. Messianic Judaism. Imagine what the early Christian church was like. They were Judaic Jews who came to know the Messiah. Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles worshiping together. Keeping the Judaic roots. They accepted the next piece of the puzzle -- Yeshua -- and their faith was complete. There you have it.
Our Christian faith is Jewish. We read a Jewish Bible. Our Lord and Savior,Yeshua HaMashiakh, is Jewish. Who better to go to than the Jews that have come back to Elohim by the saving grace and spiritual acknowledgement that Yeshua is indeed the promised Messiah? ---> Messianic Judaism.
I also have made peace with science and G_D. They are both right. The Book of Nature, and The Book of G_D are in agreement. The Universe is old, 13.7 Billion years old. The Sun is about 5 Billion years old. The Earth is 4.56 Billion years old etc. etc. etc.
However, as a believer you won't understand this unless you read the whole Bible, including The Book of Enoch, The Book of Secrets of Enoch, books that the early Christian Church had, read, studied, and even quoted from. Jesus himself said "You do err, not knowing the scriptures" and then went into explaining that there won't be marriage in Heaven. Where did he get that doctrine? The Book of Enoch. He called the Book of Enoch Scripture. The Book of Enoch and The Book of Secretes of Enoch go far more into depth regarding Creation. The Book of Secrets of Enoch go into detail on the 2 very long ages of Light and Darkness (The Big Bang, which by the way wasn't big and didn't go bang) before the Universe formed in its final form. Genesis was allegorical and a very brief summary of the Book of Enoch and The Book of Secrets of Enoch. The Books of Enoch, and he wrote 366 books, were far before Moses day, yet were passed down from generation to generation. There were Homo Genus species separate from and prior to Homo sapiens that were carnal that didn't have an eternal soul, the breath of G_D, the spirit of G_D, that were not made in G_D's image as we were. Homo sapien, man, Adam, is the one made in G_D's image. We have many qualities like G_D. We are fashioned after him. The other Homo Genus species were not. Even the Jewish Talmud speaks of this.
By the way, Moses was a climber. John the Baptist was a climber. Jesus was a climber. You can't climb the mountains they did and spend the amount of time in the wilderness as they did and not climb.
If you really want to know more and also how important Israel is to the World and what exactly is the Abrahamic covenant, then I really recommend these resources . . .
Promised Land: Israel through the Eyes of Surfers
http://promisedlandthemovie.com/
Purchase both the DVD & Study guide together here:
https://store2.bandfarm.com/walkingonwater/product/?catID=18&prodID=3907
Israel Inside: How a Small Nation Makes a Big Difference
http://www.israelinsidethemovie.com/
I'll leave you with this, and its even Climbing related! One of my favorite Oden Fong songs from The Jesus Movement days. It rocks and its inspirational! Enjoy.
Oden Fong - Come for the Children - White Eagle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRW6gtnAkF4
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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