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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Say.... what happened to the "Metcalf Countdown Clock" that Coz was running?????
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I don't know about a clock but oakm said;
the majority of you guys hating on BD have not posted any sort of evidence to support your issues
Let Metcalf go on the record and say he never lied to me,..
I will have something to offer up regarding his credibility.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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I have disputed much of what you have said in this thread or flatly disagreed with you because I think you are ill informed on the subject and wrong. I have noted however you have not bothered to rebutt a number of my comments that seem on point rather you just change he subject.
Feel free to send me a list of things I have either ignored or not answered thoroughly and Ill see what I can do. BTW I love how you have edited your posts after I have replied to them on almost every occasion.
aforslund, you can say what ever you want, so can I. That's the beauty of an internet forum, and hell our first amendment rights. One of the great things is I don't have to prove or disprove anything to you or you to me. I also don't have to tell anyone my real name or anything else. If you feel that it gives you more credibility, good for you.
As for Petzl always doing the right thing. It took them 3 years to recall the sarken crampons. And if they were so concerned as you have said and would recall on the smallest number or returns why wouldn't they recall the Lynx with 2 or 3 broken sets? They still broke didn't they?
At some point someone needs to say what an acceptable percentage is for a broken crampon, for all companies. Is it 1/1000, 1/10000, 1/10000000? Whats the number?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I don't have to prove or disprove anything to you or you to me. I also don't have to tell anyone my real name or anything else.
That doesn't diminish your credibility.
It eliminates it.
Chris should nuke you so people aren't distracted.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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That doesn't diminish your credibility.
It eliminates it.
Chris should nuke you so people aren't distracted.
Sweet that means I don't have to waste the rest of my day on here.
Let the nuking commence!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Does that mean you are leaving?
It would be so nice if you weren't here.
See you later Peter.
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spidey
Trad climber
Berkeley CA
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"At some point someone needs to say what an acceptable percentage is for a broken crampon, for all companies. Is it 1/1000, 1/10000, 1/10000000? Whats the number?"
At some point someone from each company whose crampons are breaking needs to decide that for themselves. And they need to figure out why they are breaking, and fix it so they don't break. And they need to make sure that everyone who already bought their breakable crampons is taken care of with either a refund or a non-breakable pair.
I have a pair of Stainless Sabertooths (as well as a whole lot of other BD gear). Frankly after reading this thread and the Coldthistle blog posts about it I am scared to use them or let friends use them for anything except top-roping, and I'm pretty bummed that I fell for the stainless steel marketing BS they put out. I was a big fan of BD gear for years, but I'm seriously disapointed in the lack of a real answer as to why their crampons are breaking and what they are going to do about it. It sounds like Kanders is up to his old tricks and the predictions of BD quality going downhill after the acquisition are starting to come true.
I don't want to risk my life or my friend's lives using suspect gear or support a company owned by a guy like Warren Kanders with a history of knowingly selling defective safety gear to the military, and currently selling defective safety gear to climbers.
Thanks BD, it was fun while it lasted.
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Bob Culp
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Where would you find one like YC?
I had one of the first pair of his crampons. Boy were they sweet!
I noticed a couple little cracks but kept on using them. We were taking our gear out of the car at the telepherique in Cham and I threw my pack onto the pavement.
My partner said "Bob, your crampons just broke." Son of a gun. So they had. We went rock climbing.
When YC got wind of the problem he started trying things to fix it and the end result was a complete redesign that sadly never seemed to climb as well. He didn't wait around to act though.
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Gene
climber
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Seems like BDE's Cerro Torre and Torre Egger days ended 12 years ago.
g
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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LOL
Fitzroy punked out!
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Gene
climber
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Fitzroy punked out!
Yeah. BDE forgot its roots/routes.
g
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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I find it interesting that Oakm has only 16 posts, all in this thread. I also find his comments regarding the quantity of BD crampons sold to be very interesting. He states that you just need to "do the math" to get to the 23000 unit sold number. However, you need to have a lot more information about BDs financials to back-into that quantity estimate. Maybe that info is more readily available than I think it is, but I doubt it. In other words, he seems VERY well informed from someone who is not inside the BD organization.
I am not going to go as far as to say that Oakm is a member of BD management or ownership. However, I will say that the content of his posts thus far make me very suspicious. I do not think this would have been the case 15 years ago; someone from BD would have already directly responded.
From what I have seen, BD has blamed the root cause of the failures on other equipment (boots), stated that it may have been samples or prototypes, been less than transparent and definitely lacked of a consistent message regarding this issue. Although this type of behavior is all too typical of many organizations, seeing it from a company that produces life safety equipment is deeply troubling. This incident, along with the change in management and moving a significant amount of production to China make me seriously question my previously high opinion of the BD organization.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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ncrockclimber,
see my response to his first post.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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He states that you just need to "do the math" to get to the 23000 unit sold number. However, you need to have a lot more information about BDs financials to back-into that quantity estimate.
18 broken crampons is what I based this off of.
crampons broken = .078% of crampon sales (it makes sense that this is a qty not a $ amount based on BDs annual sales, otherwise the cost a pair of sabertooths be just shy of $100K)
so quick math 18/.00078 (don't forget to move your decimal 2 places its a %...) = ~23077 pairs
And for you statistics buffs out there that is a 4.7sigma process. There are lots of climbing, and medical device manufacturing companies out there that are only 3 sigma (that's all a wild country harness is rated to) And I climb on one of those too.
The main point that I have been trying to make is that it is impossible to make a piece of gear, a car, a space shuttle or anything else that is impervious to breaking.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Which is why we have recalls when there is a danger to the consumer.
Some companies get on them right away while others wait until it is too late and then try to sweep it under the carpet.
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oakm
Ice climber
SLC, UT
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Which is why we have recalls when there is a danger to the consumer.
So when is the right time to have that recall? How many/what percentage have to break for it to be a danger to the consumer vs freak occurrence?
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Gene
climber
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A freak occurrence is a distinct, unique, inexplicable, and unpredictable failure.
When there are multiple failures of specific aspects of one product, the situation is no longer a freak occurrence. It's a problem.
Only one has to break to be a danger to the consumer.
g
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El Bucanero
climber
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Narrator: A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
Business woman on plane: Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?
Narrator: You wouldn't believe.
Business woman on plane: Which car company do you work for?
Narrator: A major one.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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One single death or serious disability due to this crampon failure and the price will skyrocket for BD, especially as this is clearly public knowledge now. This thread and internal emails discussing it would be exhibit one in a court case. Then they'd have to recall them anyway, but only after paying out how many millions of $ ?
I'm not an attorney, I don't even play one on the internet and even I know this stuff.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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I see how you got to that number. I that if that is all the math you are doing, you are making a ton of assumptions and missing key information that make your 23,000 number very questionable. However, I will concede that no inside information is required for that calculation.
I also get your point; that the failure number is very low if BDs failure rate on SS crampons is only.78%. However, if the failure rate is so low and inconsequential, why did BD redesign the product and add material to the area where the failures are occurring? Also, stating that returns in 2010 were only .78% of sales tells us very little by itself. What % of those returns were pre stainless steel and which were stainless? How old were the SS crampons that failed? How do the failure number differ between SS and non-ss crampons? I could go on, but I think you get my point. Just like the 23,000 number, the .78% quoted by BD does not prove that SS crampons are not failing in significant numbers. Quoting facts like that sounds great, but it only serves to obfuscate the issue with data that is not relevant.
In the end, it goes back to the credibility of an organization that makes life safety equipment. You, and BD by virtue of its silence, seem to believe that 18 failures is not important enough to warrant a response. A significant sampling of Supertopo poster on this thread seem to feel very differently. I personally feel that BDs actions (or lack thereof) evidence a shift in corporate culture. My perception of that shift is going to make me much less likely to buy their products in the future.
BTW, you asked how many failures are acceptable. I would say less than 18. A lot less.
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