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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Sep 29, 2011 - 10:12am PT
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so someone a page back asked if anyone removed bolts from their routes, and i wanted to say dan mcdevitt did a few months ago. there is a thread here somewhere. he is on a mission to remove bolts from routes he did in the past where there was decent natural gear. most people commended him on his actions.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 29, 2011 - 10:47am PT
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I also heard but have not seen for myself that South Tower in the Cathedral Spires(Needles) had a bolt removed when the bolts were replaced. Granted the bolt in question was right next to a good crack. The Conns were very bold leaders esspecially for the day and I am not sure why that bolt was there. I think it was an intermediate belay at one time. But given today's gear it probably became obvious that it was not necessary. I do feel that just because you put up the FA does not always mean the best job was done. Another thing is how do we know there was not some great free soloist that flew under the radar and climbed everything that now has bolts. I am willing to bet that manythings that were free soloed perviously now have bolts because no body know. Making a route with bolts is obviously a man made decision its not like God put them there.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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What I see here is Ricky returning 37 years later and feeling mildly disturbed by what he had created with Wilson when they were kids. He is thinking of reprising the route with improved intentions. Today a refined law professional of greater moral power and humanity, he is finding this youthful creation bothers him on several levels.
One aspect is the self-contradictory and perhaps inconsistent quality of a wondrous, popular 5.9 crack pitch topped by the wicked trap of a long 5.7x scramble-up that now is sadly ignored for its perils and Category Two fall potential. And instead Super Chicken has transmogrified into a two-pitch rappel-off despite the FA vision of a route in full.
Another is the strange experience he is having of not remembering the climb but only recalling the subject pitch and maybe not even establishing anchors as he belayed Wilson up his 5.7x. Wilson states he apparently was just ‘sitting there’ when Jim arrived.
Finally, I have to think Ricky is reconsidering his coded message of yore: putting up a beautiful and irresistible 5.9 crack pitch topped with a ‘death lead’ 5.7 on Tuolumne chicken heads---what was ‘he saying’ by this ‘tour de force’...? We can assume Ricky is ‘not that kind of guy’ any more! (lol). Granted stopping in a few times to bolt the 5.7 might have been very unattractive at the time for the likes of RA, nonetheless, it would soon be climbed by others.
So for me the discussion is about Ricky returning to the easel and painting in humans now in that landscape. As far as precedent setting, and others have noted copiously, I wouldn’t be worried that we would soon see backhoes trenching up and down the Great White Book because after all that similar route is 5.6x and has to be corrected too. We all agree the first ascensionist has the prerogative to edit his line and we are calmly flattered he asks for opinions…(g). What I have to think Ricky is concerned about too is how he would feel if someone did take a tumble off the pitch. The leader AND the belayer would at minimum be terribly injured and more likely simply not make it.
It might even be a question for him of basic and simple ‘workmanliness’ of the route, the straightforward crafting of it according to protocol and utility. Let’s remember that it is quite possible to be on that pitch in one of our all-too-frequent afternoon electrical storms and showers; no protection would be in, no way of securing yourself in an electrical storm... it would be a big question how that lead would turn out for most climbers stuck in such a situation but capable of leading it when it was nice and dry. Other similar crises are possible too and common enough to consider. So yes it is also a question of how well-crafted that pitch is currently in keeping with the grade of the whole climb.
As for my recommendation on this, I go with Eric Beck and that side of the argument. Craft the route in conformance with our traditions in the US and the rest of the climb; remove the odd and perhaps mean-spirited symbol of a 5.7x surprise lead belonging on top of an intermediate’s route. Although I am all for 3rd classing, for giant runouts and perilous journeys, Super Chicken is hardly the place for such flights to heaven.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
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Peter says it best.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
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end of thread
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
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Ron, not everyone has a guide when they are looking for stuff to do. Maybe a couple climbers were planning on doing another route nearby that they were familiar with but was too crowded today, they don't have a guide with them and are merely looking at other stuff to do while at the base of the wall. The "surprise" is that such a lead on top of a benign, gorgeous, popular 5.9 crack is very unusual and in fact, a hidden trap of sorts, out of keeping with the visible aspects of the climb. You know how people always seem to find trouble?
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 29, 2011 - 02:30pm PT
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I don't buy the slippery slope argument. Bolts aren't going to start popping up all over TM if this gets done. Nor, for that matter, have rap bolted routes started going in all over Yos following Growing Up.
And Shakespeare is a bad example. At least pick something that is more closely related in age:
Should George Lucas have been able to change Star Wars to have Greedo shoot first?
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Sep 29, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
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There is one detail I would like to point out.
First, though, I'll say that I am noncommital on the issue of this climb.
I would like to do it whether bolts are added or not, but chances are good
that I won't get around to it.
The discussion is interesting and civil thus far.
The fact that the pitch in question is the third rather than the first is
relevant. This is not so simple as the Alan Nelson routes or various Bachar
routes which dictate that a climber solo at the grade of the climb.
This is not a matter of forcing a 5.7 climber to put it all on the line,
simply because the climber has already had to climb 5.9 to get there.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 05:49pm PT
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I like what Dingus and BES1'st said about all the diversity. But isn't that the point? To try and maintain the diversity? I like all forms of climbing but I do like certain forms more than others. And I don't know why such a hedonistic ritual is so important as to blab on about it as Werner said but climbing is as important to me as world peace. So......should we try to keep that diversity or should we homogenize? STZZO edits well to make his point but left out some things. Shipoopi did say he has gone back and altered routes but he also said that there are routes he does not want to alter such as "burning.....because he feels it strongly represents an important piece of the TM history. Higgens has granted alterations on some but not on others. After reading the input, it seems like we can have both (even though I think we already do). Climbs that stay as they were originally intended and others that can be altered without fear of changing it all (Although there were changes between styles anyway from Kamps/Higgens to Kauk). Most seem to agree that the FA parties have the say. History seems to show that following the wishes of the FA parties has worked well. After all, Bachar changed the belays on the B/Y and nobody complained about the character of that route. Shipoopi, Higgens, RA, Kauk and Barnes et al are among the living fathers of the metamorphosis of the constitution of TM climbing. They also represent changes as well. I trust them to maintain there version of the ethics of the area. The idea being that we keep a cross section of all the diversity intact. I'm not one of the heavies here but I do represent new climbers coming in who appreciate and respect the history and diversity of TM and wish to have a chance to feel that history and diversity.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 06:51pm PT
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Shipoopi, Higgens, RA, Kauk and Barnes et al I shuddered when I read that...no way do I belong in that grouping. I'm just a 5.10 climber who happens to do new routes (and tends to add bolts to my own routes right away if the climbing is fun and it's consistent with the character of the climb).
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 07:28pm PT
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Like others I'm not strongly for or against adding bolts. I like both old-school runout climbs and modern climbs. I replace bolts on routes that have probably never seen a second ascent - but it shows newer climbers that the climbing community values those routes. Even the FAs sometimes wonder why I bother (I replaced Knob Roulette a while back, and the kid just asked me "Why?").
In my opinion, in this specific case, I'd like to see that 3rd pitch with a few bolts. Super Chicken is a very well-known crack climb, one of the classics of Tuolumne, but most people don't even know it goes higher, and pretty much no one does it to the top (my guess is that those who've chimed in about their climbs of it are probably about half of the total ascents ever). This is not one of the classic runout routes of the lower grades - Dike Route, South Crack, Magical Mystery Tour, Breathing Hard, Solitary Confinement, etc. And there are plenty of severe runouts at lower ratings in Tuolumne.
Funny example Dingus, years ago I was up on Wall of the Worlds (or is it War of the Walls?) with 3 others (two teams of 2), and everyone wanted to bail from the base of the face pitches. I wasn't very experienced at that point, but I ended up leading both of them (the second on 1/4" bolts) just because I couldn't face rapping. I should have realized that there was a reason all the experienced folks wanted to rap...
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scuffy b
climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
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Sep 29, 2011 - 07:39pm PT
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Del cross: The difference is that the 2nd pitch has already required
someone to lead a 5.9 pitch, so there is some margin inherent.
If this were a 5.7 unprotected one pitch climb, then it would be more
restrictive, more or less off-limits to 5.7 and 5.8 climbers.
Now, I am not saying that any 5.9 climber ought to be able to keep it
together and lead that unprotected 5.7, but a 5.7 climber is not going to
be faced with leading this pitch.
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bob
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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Respect the FA party. Simple.
Bob J.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 29, 2011 - 08:13pm PT
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Hey .....
Hey You.....
Ya you ...
Ya can't bolt anything unless we say you can.
Yuk yuk yuk ...... :-)
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Sep 29, 2011 - 09:31pm PT
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Greg Barnes. What I was trying to say is those climbers who've had an impact and also helped "change" the landscape of TM. Maybe I'm not a good enough writer to get my point across. What I've been trying to say is it takes all sorts of creatures to make the reef complete. And all those creatures are unique. There are ground up, hand drilled from stance climbs to well protected sport climbs. Look at Medlicott. You've got ground up horror shows over melted bolts whose names are long forgotten,aid lines that nobody remembers to Peace. And you, Greg have put up several wonderful,popular well protected moderates which are a change from the unprotected moderates of the past as well as being a leader in preserving those climbs by updating the protection. All of these styles are equally important to the fabric of TM and you have been at the front of preserving the history of ALL climbs regardless of style. A great community service! There are many different styles of climbing represented in TM and I just think those things that are unique should be preserved. I like some "world music" but Dark Side Of the Moon will always be my favorite traveling record. And I sure hope they don't go back an re-mix it.
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Sep 30, 2011 - 12:55am PT
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Slippery slope it is! If the rationale is to make the route safer, then why not bolt the last pitches of South Crack. One could also run cables along Snake dike to turn it into a great Via Ferrata for aspiring climbers! There is no end to this. There are two components to the debate, one about control and the other about the reason why we climb.
The main issue behind this discussion is the "ownership" of the route. While we could all argue one way or the other, the climbing community seems to forget that climbers do not own the rock. The general population does. If the bolting craze is not stopped, we will end up with grid bolts on every face. The non climbing community -vastly greater than the climbing one- will have its way and require that climbers remove their bolts. Non climbers appreciate the rocks as much as climbers, in a different way. To the non climber, bolts on a rock are the same as graffiti on a wall! We as a community must be very careful about the consequences of bolting as we cannot fight public opinion who will clamor for an end to bolting and restoration of the rock to its natural state. Ignoring the other constituents will lead to restrictions on climbing. Do we really want to bury our collective head in the sand and wake up when the NPS bans climbing in some areas, require a climbing license and climbing fees?
The second issue is spiritual. Most of us on ST are old geesers who might not climb in 10 years. Our vision is too focused on the short term.
In the long run, if the current trend continues, sport routes will be dominant everywhere (using the safety argument). Climbs will become an extension of the gym. Something will then be lost; The traditional climber had to know his limits, had to be able to judge the difficulty of the climb, had to learn how to place and trust his gear, had to understand and respect the mountain. The new breed will only experience the physical part of the climb, leaving out the spiritual part that is at the core of climbing. More bolts means less commitment, less spiritual connection with the rock. The beauty of climbing is that it forces you to face yourself. We all are scared at some point, and learn to dominate our fear. That inner battle is tied to the risk involved, regardless of our climbing ability. Removing the risk is removing some of why we climb.
I am not ready to lead Super Chicken, and if I really want to do it, I will have to have my head together first. I chose not to climb that last pitch, and everybody else has that choice.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Sep 30, 2011 - 12:59am PT
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nothing really to add here, but thaDood's post reminded me of those excellent days in the meadows before the first reid and falk guidebook. Very few climbers up there. You'd talk to people and hear about a new route here or there, go take a look, find the first bolt or two and go for it. Really gave you the sense of living life full. He is correct that you assumed it would be run out.
An added bit of spice in those days was you did not have a good idea of how many bolts or approximately where they were (no topos) and sometimes you missed one. Spent a lot of time squinting for all you were worth, thinking there had to be one close. Sometimes you would be looking down to see how ugly the fall might be and damn, there was a bolt 10 feet below and off to the right that you had climbed right past.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 30, 2011 - 01:10am PT
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Could people just do a different more well protected 5.7 in TM I heard there is more climbing there but haven't actually been there myself so it is hard telling not knowing.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
welded to my bike seat
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Sep 30, 2011 - 01:52am PT
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Tough call.
On the question of the alleged slippery slope: adding a couple bolts to an obscure topout pitch will certainly nudge us a bit further towards the edge we all fear. Just not very far, IMO, and this one isn't going to be the nudge that gets the trundle going.
The fact that Rick is even asking people what they think reflects the changing character of the times, and of the first ascentionists themselves. Many here have chimed in to the effect that to every style of climbing there is a season, and what with the kids and the mortgage and the goddam Christmas party coming up, well, it would't be right to see it all go down the tubes on account of a broken knob. This stuff doesn't even occur to your average 20-something with a drill bit in his pocket on 'easy' terrain: "It's easy, and we already did the part that looked so good from the ground, so let's put 'er to bed." I can personally attest to the shortsightedness of the young male homo sapiens- never thought I'd see the far side of 30. If you'd asked me, though, whether a new route should reflect these concerns(kids, mortgage, knob), I'd have said something like 'tough shite', heat/kitchen, up your game, blah blah blah.
Surprise! Not sure I buy that any more. That season of life is in the rear-view now, if not entirely gone. Rick's even older. The fact is, we all spend a lot more time in the kid/mortgage years than in the flower of heedless youth, and Ricky just wasn't there yet. Those two outlooks are so far apart that they're damn close to being two different people. 1974 Rick has become just another thoughtless elitist to 2011 Rick.
My bottom line, though: it's the FA's call. This is our system, and the people in question are clearly smart and thoughtful folks, elders of our tribe. I trust their judgment. If they hadn't asked our 'permission' , but merely forgiveness after the fact, I suspect the response would have been along the lines of a collective shrug, Maybe a raised eyebrow here and there.
It's a bit late for this, though, after 37 years. Don't let me see you boys in this office again.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Sep 30, 2011 - 02:42am PT
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Sounds like the FA decision is the ethic and it does seem to work. And when I go to climb it next season, there may be bolts or not and it won't matter 'cause it'll be up to me to clip them or not. Thanks for letting a rookie have a go in the discussion.......
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