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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Sep 19, 2011 - 11:54pm PT
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Thought experiment.
Can Dingus, Freddie, and heisenberg not clip the same bolt twice?
What is the affect of non stated judging?
If a judge falls in the forest and there is no rapbolter present does a drilled pocket make a climb free?
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Sep 20, 2011 - 12:05am PT
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Now I get to go to war with one of my hero's, JL.
Henry Barber climbed waaaay harder than the rest of us mere mortals, JL included. That does not mean he should have the only right to stand on the summit of superpin.
Death routes are ego. Ego is the enemy. F*#k your philosophical rants. The bolt was in place for 35 years.......
Yeah I have sack, why dont you go build a equalette.....
100 bucks, 1/2" glue in stainless. Email me for payment
Seth Zaharias
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Sep 20, 2011 - 12:14am PT
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go play on the monkey bars zack setharias,
should be plenty safe for you there.
just wipe up your jizz when you onsight the teeter-totter.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 20, 2011 - 12:17am PT
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sethsquatch76,
though experiment:
I'll give you $100 for doing that and email it to you after you finish the offer.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 20, 2011 - 12:28am PT
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Jaybro,
even non stated judging changes the (wave)eigenfunction characteristics, but we do not know what this means for a mass of our size partly because we have no way of measuring a wave of this size.
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sethsquatch76
Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
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Sep 20, 2011 - 12:28am PT
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Dingus, if I was near the Needles I would do the job myself. Maybe next year if I go back to work at the Tower.....
Norwegian, your comment is silly...... Of course I'll clean up my mess.
Who loses? The rock and us climbers that like to climb things......
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Sep 20, 2011 - 12:32am PT
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Dingus, do you remember the agreement that was made at the end of the bolt wars. Remember where that line was drawn? That line has been eradicated.
Just sayin.
Doesn't bother me, there's plenty of places left in the hills to climb without noise.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Sep 20, 2011 - 12:33am PT
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So Largo I take it you agree that the bolt should have been removed after being there for 35 years.
I am not for retro bolting routes, but I feel this is just going out and causing problems for publicity's sake. I wonder if there will be a story in a magazine on this one. Why could this have not been done oh maybe 25 years ago. I would say a decade is enough time for someone even from the east coast to get the job done I really just don't get the timing, the statement, or the willingness to open a can of crap that will only cause damage to the rock even more.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Laramie
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Sep 20, 2011 - 12:51am PT
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johnboy,
when which bolt war ended? And what line eradicated? Some things have happened up there that I have not been privy to since I do not belong to the "club" that is at least by a measure of attendance and dues.
But for evidence one could say that among this contentious lot that others refer to as the Black Hills locals, surprisingly, there has been almost unanimous consent for 34 years to not remove the Superpin bolt. Do locals rule?
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Sep 20, 2011 - 01:06am PT
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Holy shizz that was a great post Rich!!
Wish I could tell a tale like that!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 20, 2011 - 01:07am PT
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RG, a great story.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Sep 20, 2011 - 02:06am PT
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Dingus,
The bolt wars in the hills back in the 80's, things got pretty hot. As a settlement an agreement was made as to what areas bolts would be allowed and what would not via the "line". Sorry, thought you might remember that and enjoy a chuckle from the past. I knew back then it was no more than a tactic to end the heated debates and that in time it's promises wouldn't be kept.
I never participated back then and continued to do my own thing. Always thought it was petty of climbers to draw and quarter the hills.
Edit.
Almost forgot your question, but yes, certain locals rule.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Sep 20, 2011 - 02:11am PT
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excellent rgold!
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 20, 2011 - 02:21am PT
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Seems pretty clear.
First ascentionist climbs bold route (which gets repeated by top climbers of the day).
Subsequently, a bolt is added.
First ascentionist (allegedly) removes bolt.
There it should remain...
People often seem to think they need to "ask" the first ascentionists if they can add a bolt to runout routes, but nobody owns the rock in public lands. But surely after 35 years, there's more climbers who can climb runout 5.10 comfortably; if not, it's a sad commentary on the evolution of climbing (or lack thereof) in the modern era.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 20, 2011 - 03:31am PT
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My point per the 35 year old route wise crack is that from all that I have seen, modern climbers are better in most every regards than us "old" guys. There are more high boulderers, many, many more extreme free climbers, and add in gym climbing and cross training and sticky rubber, and balking at a runout 5.7/8 face seems almost silly. Then getting razed for saying so out loud seems even crazier, as though questioning the practice of retro bolting classic old routs is something that requires a defense. Says who? And why? Is somebody really going to say they, by self appointment, will be the official arbiter of a given climb AFTER the first ascent? That's a bold stance in my book.
What makes this one a sticky wicket is that the route garnered popularity with the extra bolt in place, essentially making it too late to chop - which I would never suggest. I only question adding bolts to existing routes in the first place. So to answer your question: No, I don't believe
agree that the bolt should have been removed after being there for 35 years. But I sure would hate to see new bolts showing up on other classic route like Mechanics route at Tahquitz. But with some of the talk showing up on this thread, I have to wonder.
Of course had it not been on a classic formation made famous for bold climbing, this discussion never happens. It seems like one of those perfect storms of circumstances that defies a pat solution.
Great story, Rich. Bob Kamps was our hero growing up.
JL
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Sep 20, 2011 - 06:14am PT
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Rich, I agree with you usually on most things other than the extent of your purity. I started out as an ice climber so I have a deep rooted backround in Alpine rules where pretty much anything goes for upward progress. You should try hooking the eye of a snarg with your ice pick to speed things up. Its quite liberating after awhile once you admit that ice climbing by it's very nature is cheating no why worry about a minor thing like yarding on gear;)
In general I do not approve of retro bolting nor do I approve of single bolt death routs. If you want to put up a death route do so with the natural gear or lack there of that the route affords you. If you are going to put your mark on the rock with a drill then you have an obligation to put up a decent rout that will be worth repeting.
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jopay
climber
so.il
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Sep 20, 2011 - 07:06am PT
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Well speaking of Kamps, I'll share my story, at age 63 Bob shows up in our area and I happen to meet him and Bonnie very early in their visit. I agree to show them our area. At Cedar Bluffs I have a route "April Fools" 5.10 on-sight trad and un-reapeated. Without any hesitation he throws on his rack and sends for the second ascent. Still to this day fewer than 10 sends, Bob was the real deal, proud to have climbed with him and see him do my route. Great story rgold.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2011 - 07:36am PT
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Good thoughts from Largo, Rich, Gill, and a few others. I kind of
agree with John Long that we don't have to pussy-foot around the
issue so much. Just say it like it is. It was always, in any area
I ever visted, and I visited a lot of them, unacceptable to
retro-bolt something, in order to bring it down to a sense of
accessibility. I mean, we could bolt Perilous Journey, the beautiful
virtual free solo Breashears did in '75 of a 150-foot, vertical wall,
with a 5.11 rating. We don't do that. But "we" is a group to which
some don't feel they belong, and there are some important routes
where climbers enjoy the protection of a bolt now, whereas the first
ascent party were bolt free. Athlete's Feat, for example. Royal let
that in 1964, solid 5.11, one of the first in the country, no chalk,
no pro, just pure skill and a strong mind. I led the second ascent
of the route, and Roger Briggs the third. One day I remember walking up
the canyon and seeing two fellows aiding that first pitch. The leader
had placed one bolt, was standing in an aid sling from it and drilling
the second. I was appalled but said, "uhhh, excuse me... that is a
free climb." The leader turned back at me and replied, "Ohh sure, sure
it is, uh huh." He didn't buy it. I walked away. I believe I removed
those bolts, but to my shock they reappeared. That whole area had
already been the scene of some serious bolt wars, placing, chopping,
replacing, and the rock was really starting to be the loser in all
that. I finally decided not to remove the bolts. The lower one, however,
did disappear later. Now, though, people do Athlete's Feat by clipping
that remaining bolt above their heads and having, in essence, a top-rope on
the problem. Few will care to know, it seems, the history or what
an incredible lead Royal made of that testpiece. There was nothing
in Yosemite, or Tahquitz, that hard at that time, in terms of a
relatively short free climb (the entire route is four or five pitches,
one 5.11, three 5.10, and one 5.9).
I got a lot of flack for not chopping that bolt. Ken Wilson railed on
me one day, saying it was my moral obligation to chop it. This was just
as I moved up the crux moves.... Ken was/is a character.
As I said somewhere else, on a related thread, Henry was "da man," in
his day and can still climb very well today. It's in his DNA. I have
never seen him as self-righteous, or as someone who deserves the
negative descriptions given him up-thread. I watched Henry lead
on-sight, with only three points of protection, and hardly a moment's
hesitation, "Death And Transfiguration," on the Fourth Flatiron,
Roger Briggs' overhanging 5.12 route. Henry, in his prime, was the
best all-around rock climber anywhere. Well, sure, some of us could
boulder circles around him. I don't know if he knew how to aid climb, but
you look at his accomplishments in Yosemite, for example, the first
5.12 (Fish Crack), Butterballs, Sentinel in, what, an hour an a half?
If he chopped a bolt, it was likely for none of the reasons cited.
It might have been simply because of his high sense of ethics.
We need more of his kind,
not fewer. He is the example. He and I climbed a lot, and he was
like a mentor, in terms of style. I watched him lead Pratt's Twilight
Zone on-sight, quickly and without any big pro or Friends, because
he wanted to repeat the route as close to Pratt's style as possible.
When I think of Henry I think of some great artist such as Rembrandt.
If Rembrandt didn't want to use a certain type of media, because
it erodes quickly..., well wouldn't we fellow artists be inclined
to respect his views rather than defend our own? The man knows
something. Barber has his reasons,
and none of the minor climbers arguing about it are going to
understand, but his ability and achievements warrant our respect
rather than our condemnation.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2011 - 09:46am PT
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Thanks to Henry, at least, for starting this discussion, and for all the thoughtful contributions, especially those from several bona fide legends of our sport.
I come at this argument from a number of angles. First, Henry is a friend and critics should refrain from the very personal attacks on him. Henry deserves our respect; he was arguably the best of our generation of climbers. One thing the Bachar memorial taught me is that the anger generated by these style controversies- which has led in some cases to fisticuffs between former friends- seems pretty silly at the end of the day (or the end of a life). If Confederate and Union civil war veterans could embrace each other at reunions after the civil war, we should be able to have a discussion here without name calling and ad hominim attacks.
I am an advocate for preserving risk in rock climbing. Eliminating the risk is like taking the bubbles out of champagne and arguing that the flat wine is just as good. So, landmark routes like Superpin, which were done in a bold style, should be preserved in the adventurous form of the first ascent.
However, I also believe that the local climbing community should have the biggest say in determining style questions like this. When I was on the board of the Access Fund, we used to paraphrase Tip O’Neil’s political maxim and apply it to climbing: “All access is local.” This meant that the Access Fund (celebrating its 20th anniversary this year) recognized, that to solve an access issue, it had to join with the local climbers, who had the most at stake if access were denied. Experience has shown that these style controversies have a way of leading to unwanted intervention from the land managers.
So, where do I stand? I think Henry was mistaken to have removed the bolt, if that is what he did. It would have been better to have started a discussion on ST or some other forum and argued for his position of restoring the route to its original condition. The problem with unilateral action here (chopping the bolt) is that it typically results in unilateral action by the opponents (putting it back).
The Needles has a long tradition of bold routes and that is one of the things that makes it a great area. I would think that local climbers would feel proud of this tradition and see the need to preserve it, but I am willing to defer to their collective judgment.
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