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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 26, 2011 - 09:10pm PT
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Guys, please save it for another thread.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 26, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
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Guys, please save it for another thread.
Do we really need another thread? I think everybody here sympathizes and feels remorse, but it's a wider discussion of how this happens and how to prevent it.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 26, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
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Photographs, names and short biographies of about 1/3 of the dead.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/norway-dead-interactive
I'd had the impression that the Norwegian police wouldn't be releasing the names until early next week, but maybe that changed, or The Guardian has other sources. The interactive graphic is set up so that they can add the other victims. The youngest dead was 14. Several bodies haven't been found yet, and they continue to search the lake.
The exchange of text messages between a 16 year old girl on the island and her mother, from after the shootings started until the murderer surrendered.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/26/norway-attacks-survivor-texts-mother
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Jul 26, 2011 - 10:43pm PT
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I'd had the impression that the Norwegian police wouldn't be releasing the names until early next week, but maybe that changed, or The Guardian has other sources. The interactive graphic is set up so that they can add the other victims. The youngest dead was 14. Several bodies haven't been found yet, and they continue to search the lake.
The exchange of text messages between a 16 year old girl on the island and her mother, from after the shootings started until the murderer surrendered.
I have no words to describe this kind of evil in the guise of being a 'Christian'. There really are none, except that he has defiled a peaceful religion and dragged it into the mud.
In a way I'm a realist/sadist when I try to mentally play-out how this gut did this. And when I have mental images of him in a police uniform rounding up the kids, and then willfully gunning them down, as many as possible...I get sick and upset with the human race and the inherent evil in some people.
Same thing with the throat-cutting videos that Al-Qaeda was doing for a while. I made the mistake of watching a couple.
You have to sit there in horror and ask yourself,"How can somebody actually do that to another human being and walk away fine with it?"
It's evil. That's the only way I see it. Most people CANNOT do that. They won't.
This gut in Norway was similar. Just inhumane. Evil.
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Dick_Lugar
Trad climber
Collie-Rad-O! (FC to be exact)
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Jul 26, 2011 - 10:56pm PT
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" except that he has defiled a peaceful religion and dragged it into the mud"
Christianity a "peaceful religion"...that's rich! Do your homework dude...
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Jul 27, 2011 - 01:51am PT
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(Glen Beck) states(on & off the record)that he is a Mormon. There is a vast difference. this is not the place or time to discuss it, but for starters/instance, they(LDS)do not believe that JC is Divine(God).
Inaccurate statement, thaDood.
I grew up within Mormonism and continue to be a member. The Divinity of Christ is indoctrinated from early childhood on. That is fact, sir.
Some believers seem to think they've been awarded unique and solitary ownership of the title Christian.
Glenn Beck grew up Roman Catholic, attending Catholic schools and was Catholic most of his life. He married a Mormon woman and converted. No disrespect to Catholics but I question whether he “understood” EITHER Catholocism OR Mormonism.
Mr Beck may be on an obstinate, hardheaded path to excommunication. Some Utah newspapers have suggested it… with many readers agreeing. There’s even a Facebook account: Excommunicate Glenn Beck. One contributor posting:
”Beck is a socialpathic, ammoral demagogue and a threat to society. He SHOULD and MUST be excommunicated for his public denouncement/rejection of Christ's Gospel of justice and mercy to the oppressed. If Jesus could call Peter, his chief disciple, "Satan" , how infinitely more should this perversion of humanity be so called.”
Sincere apologies for diverting the discussion.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 27, 2011 - 11:58am PT
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The Norwegian government's official on-line book of condolences is at http://blogg.regjeringen.no/protokoll/
It's in Norwegian, but pretty straightforward. Click on your cursor in the box where it says "skriv din kommentar her", under Prime Minister Stoltenberg's comments, then type away. Postings are mainly in Norwegian and English, but many other languages also. Click on "vis flere kommentarer" at the bottom to see more.
The site must be monitored for inappropriate posts, but there's nothing specific about that. Pseudonyms may be used.
I've refrained from saying much about the Norwegian reaction to Fox News and Glenn Beck. Let's just say that they are repelled by both, and they couldn't care less what religion Beck has - if any. Whatever he may say, his actions indicate that he is not a meaningful follower of any religion.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 27, 2011 - 05:22pm PT
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The search for bodies in Tyrifjorden continues, but it sounds like there may not be many more found. Only one is now known to be missing. 400 to 500 were on Utøya when the murderer arrived. (There hasn't been anything on how many were injured, and the police won't issue an official list of the dead and wounded for a few days.)
Prime Minister has announced an independent public enquiry into the tragedy, including "whether more could have been done both to prevent the attacks and respond to them".
"I think what we have seen is that there is going to be one Norway before and one Norway after 22 July," he said. "But I hope and also believe that the Norway we will see after will be more open, a more tolerant society than what we had before."
94% of Norwegians approve generally of the government and Stoltenberg's response, and 82% specifically approve of what he said in his speech on Saturday.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pages/Takk-Jens-Stoltenberg/255147837828656
There was a bomb scare at the Oslo's central station today, which led to it being evacuated. The innumerable items placed in memorials around Norway, particularly in front of Oslo cathedral, are being examined to ensure they are innocent.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/27/norway-victims-named-search-continues
The murderer, calling himself "Andrew Berwick", sent his rambling 1,500 page "manifesto" to 1,003 people by e-mail about 90 minutes before the bomb exploded in Oslo. Many were outside Norway, but all have been identified, and presumably many will be having a visit from the police.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 27, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
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FatTrad, Craig, etc: Please don't be rude, irrelevant, or both.
FatTrad: If Norway was to waterboard anyone, it would be right-wingers, including people like many of your associates, if not you. Luckily it's a civilized country. FYI, the killer's first name is about as common in Norway as "Jeffrey" is in the USA. It is derived from the Greek "Andreas", which means "man", and in English would usually be Andrew.
FatTrad: Whatever the Swiss may be doing, Prime Minister Stoltenberg has clearly spoken out in favour of tolerance and democracy, and is strongly supported by the people of Norway. I'm sure there will be a constructive discussion in Norway of these matters over the next months, and Norwegians will decide what's best for their country, in context of its needs and values. There may be a need for more effort to assimilate immigrants - many of whom are UN refugees - but your ignorant hatred and blind support of Israel wouldn't be welcome there.
Lolli: Right on, as usual. I went to the consulate today to sign the book of condolences. An emotional scene.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 27, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
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Jeff, you are posting five year old articles, about a different country. Can't you have enough respect to keep that crap to your fantasy "Clash" threads?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 27, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
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Jeff, whether or not he was mentally ill in the medico-legal sense, the killer was motivated by a variety of beliefs, sources and ideologies. Anti-Islam. Racist. Anti-women. And on and on. But the fact is that most of them were right-wing, often far right-wing, in their orientation. Full of hatred, violence and evil. Some from the US, a home of extreme right-wing rhetoric, hate and violence. You can twist and spin it all you like, to no avail. I did little more than to report the fact.
And, as far as the murderer was concerned, he was killing Muslims. But the main element is that he hated, and as a result devastated Norway. The details aren't important.
Your insistence on importing your distorted world view into this is inappropriate and unwelcome. I went to the Norwegian Centre for Holocaust and Genocide Studies when I was there a year ago. It opened in 2006. And I have a Jewish friend who lives in Bergen. Perhaps I should check with her and her partner about what the real situation is? http://www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/memorials/oslo/
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S.Leeper
Sport climber
Pflugerville, Texas
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Jul 27, 2011 - 08:17pm PT
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There ya go pig man, big man show these sheep who you are....
The charade you are....
awesome, i'm listening to animals right now!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 28, 2011 - 02:47am PT
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Police now estimate that 200,000 attended the commemorative rally in Oslo on Monday. 76 died in the attacks, 96 were treated in hospital for injuries - many continue to be - and one person is still missing.
They are considering whether to charge the murderer with crimes against humanity, which carries a maximum sentence of 30 years, instead of terrorism, for which the sentence is 21 years. In either case, the sentence can be extended in five year increments if there is any risk of repeat offences, so the practical likelihood is that he will be in jail for the rest of his life. It seems unlikely that he would survive long if ever released, even in Norway.
His defence lawyer - probably state appointed - is Geir Lippestad. He is a fairly high profile lawyer, which is how the murderer probably knew Lippestad's name. However, he is also a member of the Labour Party, which bore the brunt of the attacks.
“Someone has to do this job,” the lawyer told a news conference. Mr. Lippestad, who received Mr. Breivik’s request through the police the day after Friday’s bombings and shootings, said he spent 10 to 12 hours making up his mind before agreeing to accept the case as a matter of principle. “My first reaction was that this was too difficult,” he said. “But then I sat down with family, friends and colleagues and we said that today is the time to think about democracy, and if I said no to this job, then I would say no to democracy.”
Which is exactly how democracy and the rule of law ought to work - everyone, however apparently loathsome, is entitled to a competent defence.
Lippestad knows that the case will involve a lot of pressure, in particular from the news media.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europe/reluctant-lawyer-agrees-to-defend-norway-killer/article2110303/
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 28, 2011 - 02:11pm PT
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A small boy lays a flower at a memorial opposite Utøya.
(See also previous, new, post. I wanted this photo here.)
weschrist: check your ST e-mail.
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raymond phule
climber
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Jul 28, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
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In my last three posts I have not posted my views. It seems that Europe and Norway have plenty of racists, well beyond the killer madman and his friends.
This is obviously true but what is your point?
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Jul 28, 2011 - 05:53pm PT
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Not all republicans or conservatives are violent.
Not all liberals or democrats are pacifists.
Not all whites are rich, blacks are poor, or the culture of one country/religions/...superior to another.
Why must we see the world in black and white? I'm good, anyone who doesn't share my identical value system = evil?
I know most of the poking is in "fun". There was no fun for those Norewgian children hunted and slaughtered like animals for 90 minutes while the 911 operators focused on the down town distraction.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 28, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
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I don't understand this will to kill him off so quickly. What for?
Death is too easy. If he's dead he escapes.
If he doesn't get death, he gets the "penalty" of Norwegian "prison." Did you see the pictures of Norwegian "prisons" posted earlier in this thread?--as the poster noted, they look somewhat better than typical US budget hotel accommodations, more like a nice mid-range bed and breakfast!
No matter how "enlightened" Norwegians are, perhaps that's going a little too far?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 28, 2011 - 07:31pm PT
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After 21 years in prison No matter what his treatment is
He will not kill again, that can be assured
Really. How?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 28, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
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YOU MAKE SURE that he can't buy weapons
Boy, that was a tough one
If he figured he might be out in 21 years he could easily have a weapons cache hidden away somewhere. This guy is a good planner. I think the bomb was a diversionary attack to distract the police so he would have more time to kill children.
I am against the death penalty in nearly all cases. But sadly once in a great while someone commits an act which I think rises to the level of a capital crime. I don’t see it as a punishment or an escape, but rather a way to close the event. Speaking for myself it would be hard enough to have to try and pick up the pieces and move on in life after losing a child in such a senseless and bizarre act of violence, but to have to do so knowing every minute that the killer, who so carefully planned his mayhem, is wiling away his hours in relative comfort and could be released in a few years would be even more difficult.
I wonder how the parents of the slain children would poll on this question on a secret ballot.
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