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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Mar 30, 2013 - 11:25pm PT
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To go back to the OP...."drilling seems to be a lot harder then climbing"....the partners I put up climbs with rate the stances your drilling from on a scale of 1 to 10 rather then moves on the climb. But I've put it to the Warbler who knows a thing or two about bolting from stances that it may be harder to on-site very run out face climbs because you don't have a bolt kit with you and can't ethically add a bolt to a route which you can do when putting up the FA. He agreed that some routes may be harder on site but bolting from stances Is certainly hard and scary...
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 31, 2013 - 08:09am PT
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Nice post warbler. I find the thought of GU bolting something that i have allready TRd or inspected to be pretty silly unless it is heniously difficult to get to the top of the cliff to rapell.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 31, 2013 - 09:00am PT
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Whatever it takes to satisfy the rock police.. Our stupid rulze......
Personaly I like Alpine rules.. Anything goes to keep us moveing up and getting home alive;)
Gritstone is pretty darn silly. TR it to death and pre place the gear is fine but god forbid if you onsight lead bolt the the thing.....
Fckin rulze..............
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Mar 31, 2013 - 11:03am PT
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Yes, good posts by Warbler and Hedge!
Joe, your example illustrates the absurdity of a strict ground up style - strict in the letter, if not the spirit of the style. I'm so glad the childish wars over these issues are mostly behind us now. I remember a Las Vegas local relating the story to me about how he had dumped a bucket of sheep pellets on a party below who were using a top down style of which he did not approve!
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Mar 31, 2013 - 11:05am PT
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Ksolem, thanks for telling me about your unfortunate incident at the Dike Wall. You're right I don't remember it. I'm glad you've recovered!
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Mar 31, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
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Nice Warbler......As has been said in other posts, rules are only in the eye of the beholder/s of that time and place. I recall you saying in another thread that back in the day, and I paraphrase and you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that there were few of you playing a new game whose rules you were the authors of. And the game you were playing seemed to have faded for a time but is still alive for a few. I have always been drawn to the adventure of the style of those few. Yours, Kamps, Higgens et.al. are the climbs I'm drawn to and whose style I try to keep alive on FA. Virgin territory as you say, but more the mental challenge which seems also to have faded with those climbs. I recall you also mentioning that those climbs and that style represent the true last bastion of climbing. Where gear advancements don't have much impact and the whole game, mental as well as physical come into play.
Largo wondered on another thread if rebolting these lines would bring climbers back to them. Many have been replaced over the last few years but I still see all the aprons empty, which is just the way I like it.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Mar 31, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
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I'm just loving this thread, finally something worth blabbering about.
I don't think the number of climbers playing by the rules of "yesterday" have faded away. More like just sunk into the shadows being totally obscured by the vast hordes of climbers we have today who are overwhelmingly not willing or capable of committing to such rules. They're still out there though, just doing their thing.
Couple of points to consider too. The learning curve in many aspects today is also much higher than it was even 25 years ago. It's pretty difficult to just go out and climb (ground up, on stance) a 5.11 as your first route. You have to work up to that. And people have been working up to that at every major and even obscure crag for more than 50 years now. So in alot of places what are you left with? Difficult routes, sparsely protectable or stanceless routes, rock quality that is beyond questionable, contrivance, extremely remote and difficult to get to crags etc... Long gone are the days where you just waltz up to your local crag and just "put up" a new route and I think that has alot to do with the falling out of "gud" style. Convenience in alot of ways has become necessity.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Mar 31, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
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Salmanizer... I would, for the sake of conversation, say that as the style of on site ground up face climbing faded, that it left plenty of rock still within shouting distance. And, as Warbler says, with a little hiking...I was, and am, so happy to be finding like minded climbers out there willing to share the rope and the style. It reminds me of when I used to surf uncrowded waves where I grew up....I just recently climbed Parkline Slabs for the first time. Just me, my new found partner in arms, and the Golden Eagles overhead. A perfect, uncrowded wave...
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Mar 31, 2013 - 03:39pm PT
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No - I agree, it's just that it's not so obvious and you usually do have to walk a fair distance. Nothing staring you right in the face sorta thing.
The learning curve may be just a bit steeper to approach but no doubt, for any of you young bucks who are thinking they might want to play the game and garnish its full value. Theres still plenty of rock out there. I've been putting up routes ground up, hand drilling at free stances for almost 10 years now and I've still got so many new routes I want to take a stab at it makes my head spin, and I'm mostly just climbing in the Tahoe area.
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Scott Thelen
Trad climber
Truckee, Ca
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Mar 31, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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sure looks like Bear Res.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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I've bolted on lead and rap bolted. I really regret being a pussy and rap bolting.
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Chad, where is that last one? That rock looks gnarly.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Ho man.
Don't bring this up. I still have bad dreams.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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If ground-up bolting tradsters looked like her, I'd be in.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Ground up free FAs are very rewarding, but that style just doesn't work when it comes to very difficult overhanging limestone/pocket routes. People realized that to break into climbs like overhanging 5.14s you just aren't going to ground up, free climb the FA.
I'm proud of the ground up free FAs I've done for the style of the FA, but the routes I've done with aid are just better routes and what I'm proud of for those routes is the vision, the problem solving to get the bolts in, the eventual redpoint, and hopefully leaving a quality route that others will enjoy. It's a different game and there are many games in climbing to enjoy and/or challenge yourself with. You may prefer one aspect of climbing (e.g. free, aid, slab, offwidth) or doing an FA (e.g. ground up free granite/crack 5.12 or rap/hooking an overhanging limestone/pocketed 5.14), but that doesn't make it universally better than another style.
Watch this video of Sharma from about 2:30 to the end and tell me he didn't have a great experience putting this climb in on aid.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Fet! Thank you for that vid!!!
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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What is interesting to me is that the new generation of climbers, who are almost exclusively learning to climb in gyms and then venturing outside, don't really care how the bolts got there. The overwhelming majority of this next generation of climbers will never put up a first ascent. They are just looking to have a good day outside at the crags doing some routes.
BITD, I think more climbers aspired to doing first ascents. They understood that, as Warbler pointed out in this thread, heading up a blank slab into virgin territory with just a hammer and drill is a very legitimate form of climbing experience even if only the FA party gets to experience it.
Hopefully, there is enough virgin rock that hasn't been rap-bolted into submission that some climbers can experience that oh-so-special ground up first ascent.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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^^^^^
And that is the reason why this long standing issue still holds precedence in the climbing world today.
How many "Developers" and how much time do you think it would take to virtually eliminate or severely scarcify (is that a word??? sounds good;) the opportunity for youth to have the opportunity to forge their own expressions on the stone?
Developing (not putting up a route or two) is as often as not, no service to the community.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Developing, with an aesthetic and thoughtfully considered vision, in a manner consistent with local and regional values, is a community service. Bolting squeeze jobs, with the goal of maximizing the number of routes in a given space, certainly is not.
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