Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
|
I agree. It's very unlikely to pose a problem to the West Coast of North America, but Japan may have an issue. Probably already does.
From what I understand, even if it melts down, they're built to contain themselves for the most part. Workers would have to approach it to seal it off though. Even if it degrades to a "3 Mile Island" type event, which is HIGHLY unlikely, it's not that bad ecologically or for people as many think. Nobody from the public suffered any ill effects with TMI, got a huge 'uptake' or whole body dose, and the land wasn't contaminated. People still live around that plant, who's units are STILL up and running, save the one that actually did suffer a partial melt-down.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:51pm PT
|
rrrRaddam is correct. This is a light water reactor NOT a flammable graphite moderated pile of crap like Chernobil.
It's a serious problem, but one that will be self limiting and nothing at all like Chernobil.
From looking at the shock wave that propagated from the explosion, it wasn't a steam explosion like you'd have with a pressure vessel breach. It was a hydrogen explosion in the building.
|
|
rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
|
Of all these reports, the Al-Jazeera seems the most honest and the most detailed. Ummm... Fuku is a BWR, and I no of no BWR desiogn that has the control rods inserted from the top, but are instead pushed up thru the bottom, so the video is incorrect. And, the primary containment is the vessel, which has not been breached (as far as I understand), so the guy at the end is giving misleading info.
|
|
Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
|
But we should all panic anyway, right?
It hurts to hear these stories coming out on the news.
I'm not a god man, but I'm sending out major vibes into the collective consciousness.
The hits just seem to keep on coming.
|
|
rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
|
From looking at the shock wave that propagated from the explosion, it wasn't a steam explosion like you'd have with a pressure vessel breach. It was a hydrogen explosion in the building. Reports are that the explosion was caused by a pump, and had that explosion had no effect on the integrity of the vessel. I'm not sure how a pump can produce that type of explosion, but again, I don't have all the info so I'm not going to speculate, other than it is possible that an electric pump can ignite hydrogen.
And, for a historical perspective...
...NOT a flammable graphite moderated pile of crap like Chernobil.
That type was the first reactor, in a squash court, in Chicago, under the direction of Enrico Fermi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Pile-1
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
|
This nuclear plant situation doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
They have back up generators for each reactor.
That doesn't seem to be working.
So why can't they just truck/fly in another generator?
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 01:24pm PT
|
We're talking generators the size of a large house here.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
|
That was my question too.I know the U.S. military in Japan has huge mobile generators and heavy lift helicopters to get them there. I really hope that this won't turn out to be a case of the Japanese risking lives in a vain attempt to save face as they did after the Kobe earthquake. Hopefully the current government which is younger and less conservative won't make that mistake again.
|
|
corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 01:37pm PT
|
A possible scenario - The Fukoshima #1 explosion might have been caused by the emergency venting of hydrogen gas from the Pressurizer in that reactors primary cooling system.
The hydrogen was vented into the containment buildings air, where a spark from a relay or a motor ignited it and caused the containment building to explode outward into the environment.
That so much hydrogen gas was in the primary coolant loop can only mean that a large part of the core has been exposed to steam, and quickly overheated, auto ignited, burned white hot in the steam producing Zirconium oxide and the irksome hydrogen gas.
Needless to say some of the fuel was also released into the coolant as the
Zircaloy fuel rods burned open.
And some of the fuel came out, carried along with the hydrogen gas as it was vented from the primary coolant loop and got released with the explosion.
So the building is gone but the #1 reactor remains and whatever is left of the core will be cooled over the next several days and weeks.
Of course this is just a guess and probably way off.
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 01:40pm PT
|
"Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance (The 7 Ps)"
You don't know how bad this is going to get. Everyone should be prepared for emergencies, including having in their emergency preparedness kits, available Potassium Iodide (KI). It only makes sense.
If and when massive leaks occur, it will go right into the jet stream and that comes right to the US. Any exposure to non-natural radiation (above and beyond natural background radiation) that you might injest, breath, or drink, is dangerous. There is no safe level. Once inside your body alpha, beta, and gamma radiation from radioactive decay occurs. You have to rid your body of it the best you can, ie KI.
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp
From the City of San Clemente, very good website concerning KI, since they are so close to San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant.
http://san-clemente.org/sc/standard.aspx?pageid=586
http://www.oes.ca.gov/Operational/OESHome.nsf/0/ABC0D5826BF7038888256CC40068933B?OpenDocument
Anbex
Website:
http://www.anbex.com
Phone: 1-866-463-6754 (toll free)
Brand name: IOSAT™ tablets
Recip
Website:
http://www.thyrosafe.com
Phone: 1-866-849-7672 (toll free)
Brand name: ThyroSafe™ tablets
Emergency Preparedness Center:
http://www.areyouprepared.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=90
*Note: EPC are all all out of stock of all amounts.
http://www.nukepills.com/
*Note: nukepills ia also indicating they are out of IOSAT pills.
|
|
rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
|
A possible scenario - The Fukoshima #1 explosion might have been caused by the emergency venting of hydrogen gas from the Pressurizer in that reactors primary cooling system.
There is NO presserizer in a BWR... That is in a PWR (Pressurized Water Reactor).
They can still get hydrogen in the reactor, and this can be vented. In fact, not sure of the numbers, but, the zircalloy material the fuel rods are made of (zirc tubes with uranial fuel pellets in them) react with the water at around 1,400 F, causing it to oxidize rapidly, releasing hydrogen gas, and causing the tubes to rapidly disintegrate. Once this happens, to any degree, that fission product barrier is breached, releasing radioisotopes. It sounds like this may have happened, but AGAIN, it is speculation without more accurate information.
This is a bad type of 'fuel damage', that if left unchecked, can leave the fuel pellets in the bottom of the vessel.
|
|
rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 02:08pm PT
|
oiodine
klimmer... I work at a nuke, and live less than 3 miles from it. We do have KI, as do many within a 10 mile radius of the plant, and anybody in that zone can get it for free.
If you think you have to worry about an uptake or any whole body dose from the plant in Japan, you clearly do NOT understand what is happening, or even the worst case scenerio for what is happening there. Do you know what your uptake or dose was from Chernobyl? As in that, a significant portion of the entire core was ejected.
Any exposure to non-natural radiation (above and beyond natural background radiation) that you might injest, breath, or drink, is dangerous. There is no safe level. Once inside your body alpha, beta, and gamma radiation from radioactive decay occurs. You have to rid your body of it the best you can, ie KI.
Oh, bruther...
1. Radiation is radiation, natural or not. I get less dose per year working at a nuke than most who live in New England, or people who fly 2-3 times per week, and they get it from 'natural' sources. Heck, even most isotopes of iodine are, in fact, radioactive, as well as most isotopes of potassium... When I used to 'body count' in to plants, I would eat a bunch of bananas, so I'd get a potassium spike, joking that I wanted to leave with more radiation that I came with, when I body counted out.
2. KI doesn't 'rid' your body of radiation... It fills your throid, which can only hold so much, with KI, so there is no room for more energetic radioisotopes of iodine (I.e., radioiodine), allowing your body to rid it through normal means, in the event of an uptake. And KI only protects people from radioiodine, that's it. Not cesium, or any other fission product.
3. Not all radioisotopes emit alpha, beta, and gamma... In fact, rarely will any emmit all three of those. In fact, radioiodine (that KI protects against) is primarily a beta emitter, and that is what causes the damage. Its halflife is just over 8 days, which is why KI works.
You clearly do not know what you are talking about.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
|
Thanks for the beta, Adam.
|
|
Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 02:45pm PT
|
About six days after reactor scram, the decay heat will have diminished enough that... the core will be cool enough so there isn't any real danger of fuel melt. But cooling must continue...
I haven't worked in a commercial power reactor but was employed two years at 250 megawatt test reactor at the INEL after college.
After the fuel rods have cooled sufficiently, they are removed from the core and submerged in water for several months as they continue to give off heat. The water cools the residual heat output and also absorbs the decay neutrons.
Most reactors store the spent fuel rods on site. The rods are submerged in deep pools of water and glow with blue Cherenkov radiation from the neutron emissions.
|
|
corniss chopper
climber
breaking the speed of gravity
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 02:53pm PT
|
rrrADAM -thankyou. Some news reports that the use of seawater is a
last resort desperation move because all else has failed to cool the core.
Would not this flush some fuel out to sea from any burned open rods?
An understandable description of the differences between BWR and PWR
http://www.euronuclear.org/e-news/e-news-18/HP-BWR.htm
|
|
rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:11pm PT
|
Everything Jennie said is correct... And one interesting 'science geek' note about Cherenkov radiation.
It is due to charges particles traveling fatser than the speed of light in that medium, in this case with nuclear fuel, water. As it slows down to its velocity in that meterial through interactions with the medium, the excess energy is radiated in the frequency of blue light. Remember, all materials have their own speed of light, which is what leads to refraction, and c is the speed of light in a vacuum, and it is that that cannot be exceeded.
corniss... The sea water is being pumped IN to the plant, but not OUT. They are keeping it contained within the plant. But putting sea water into the reactor spells the end of that reactor, as normal coolant in a BWR is demin water.
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
|
It is due to charges particles traveling fatser than the speed of light in that medium, in this case with nuclear fuel, water.
Help me out here. Thanks
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:17pm PT
|
Yeah, Jennie, ans especially Adam's insights are helpful. You guys/gals should be on the news.
What I find weird is why the US (or other gov'ts) don't explain this the same way. They just say, no problem, but people are inherently distrusting of that rhetoric.
Give us the facts, we can handle it! Explain!
|
|
Gene
climber
|
|
|
Mar 12, 2011 - 03:23pm PT
|
Very fair.
While relativity holds that the speed of light in a vacuum is a universal constant (c), the speed at which light propagates in a material may be significantly less than c. For example, the speed of the propagation of light in water is only 0.75c. Matter can be accelerated beyond this speed during nuclear reactions and in particle accelerators. Cherenkov radiation results when a charged particle, most commonly an electron, travels through a dielectric (electrically polarizable) medium with a speed greater than that at which light would otherwise propagate in the same medium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation
Thanks for the link. I got it.
g
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!