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willie!!!!!
Trad climber
99827
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I have first hand knowledge that black bears are more prone to random freak-out than brownies. I live with them around most of the year.
Yes, they are usually scared off, but no, if they aren't, I will not refrain from pumping them full of 12 gauge TKO slugs.
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willie!!!!!
Trad climber
99827
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Because I'm the man and I burn the oil when I'm not "leaking" it.
True story. Off to bed.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Yikes ! How did that Grizzly get Anders' blueberry buckets?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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The problem arises when yahoos that are overly afraid use the gun when they don't need to. If everyone was totally cool and only used the gun when it was actually needed and not just when they got scared drunk or angry then there would not be any problems. So the real problem is that there are too many aholes in the world. Mix that with guns,booze, drugs, sex/love/relationship crap, stupidity and religion and you end up with a real mess.
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AKDOG
Mountain climber
Anchorage, AK
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All I did Ron, when the 14 foot Griz and I where face to face over some fine Bella Colla trout, was put the barrel on his nose and cocked the slide, the noise scared the piss out of him and he bolted.
A gun is no guarantee of safety. Your lucky! If that bear wanted to kill you, you were dead. They can run as fast as a dog, and are too stupid to know what a gun is or the sound of a round being chambered means. They want salmon or trout just cut your line and step back. Brown bear gorging on salmon are generally safe, on the Alaska Peninsula they gang up together (they hate each other normally).
I think one of the original points was if we need guns in national parks, Denali is a special place, hiking there is more wilderness than you will find in parks like Yellowstone or Yosemite. More likely to die during a river crossing than have a dangerous bear encounter there. On some level it is nice to have areas of wilderness set aside that don’t allow guns or even trails.
If people carry guns then I’ll bet we will have more incidents like this or even shooting moose, moose can be dangerous too and charge. Sometimes a bluff sometime not. There is plenty of wilderness besides the national parks where you can carry guns.
A good bear deterrent is a firecracker round from a shot gun. Of course if your barrel in on the nose it is too late.
http://www.crackershell.com/
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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Funny thing about the moose. Bet a lot more moose get shot in a self defense situation every year in Alaska than bears do. No one crying for the mooses :) And heck, they don't even want to eat you! We eat them.
"Ketchikan, ALASKA - A moose ruined the summer for 3 year old Michelle Weiss. A moose took up residence in her wading pool in early June and never left. Even if the moose did leave, the water was filled with hair and needed to be cleaned and re-filled. Once cleaned, the moose would charge back and scare off the screaming little girl just as she stepped into the pool, chasing her back into her home. For her 4th birthday Michelle has asked her parents for a gun."
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Lets not think about the fact that a bean bag round is $9.75 and a one ounce slug is $0.62.
There is something to be said for field testing.
However, in combat shotgun training one short loads the mag by one round so that you can quickly cycle in a slug for a longer shot. The same could be done with a bean bag (but only in a full length or even protruding magazine).
FILO and LIFO
(first in- last out, last in- first out)
so I like to use a single magnum round as the FILO "indicator" round.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It is interesting that Canadians rarely carry handguns, in the wilderness particularly. Canadians who live or work in wilderness areas may have access to a rifle or shotgun, or even carry one, but very few hikers/canoeists/mountaineers etc carry a gun of any kind. Despite this, we don't seem to have any worse problem with bear attacks, maulings, or deaths.
A functioning brain and bear spray are probably the most effective deterrents.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I would bet tha Coz is right on this one. Critters that have been hunted know damn well what guns are. explained why I never see bambi when i am hunting but always see him when I am not hunting.. Crows and raven who have been shot at can see and identify a rifle from half a mile away.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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I've probably come as close to being killed by a bear as anyone here (a hungry polar bear, not some wussy west coast griz). Also, I'm Canadian, and fully support the relatively stiff handgun laws of that country.
But, pinko Canadian or not, I would never knowingly venture into Grizzly/Polar bear habitat unarmed if I had a choice. We were unarmed during the encounter with the Polar bear and escaped only through an unbelievably lucky break -- we're talking million-to-one odds here.
But the only reason we weren't armed was because we had been repeatedly reassured, by those supposedly in the know, that there was zero chance of meeting a bear in that place at that time. We were on a long ski traverse, and happy to dispense with the extra weight of a weapon, but if we had known what lay ahead there is no way we'd have been caught without a firearm.
At the same time, I also believe that I'm probably in more danger from trigger-happy bozos than I am from bears... Too bad there isn't some way of allowing guns to be carried only by people with the judgement to use them wisely.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Tired of lugging around a 12 gauge???
And since I know somebody is gonna ask;
top down
the "blooper" 37mm grenade launcher with a partially inserted agricultural bird bomb and another next to a 12 gauge round (red) for comparison
Marlin Guide's Gun, shortened and ported .44mag (with box of Hornady 300gr) and the "big wheels"
S&W .44mag (holstered) and Dan Wesson .44mag (definitely a different brand than S&W)
box of Cor Bon 300gr .45Colt +P
"Old Reliable" Ruger Redhawk .45Colt
Thunder 5 .45/410 with boxes of 3"mag with five 000 buck pellets per round (5 round capacity)
and the lightweight, a H&K USC holds ten rounds of .45acp +P
(highly accurate follow up shots, and bolt retention for fast reloads)
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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As I previously noted I too, like Ghost, was a white bear's object of desire. I was also lucky. I know of some guy's who where about 6000' on the glacier below Gunnbjørns Fjeld on the east coast of Greenland. They were miles from the coast and a white bear paid them a scary visit.
Polar bear attacks Cumbrian explorers
Published at 00:00, Wednesday, 15 March 2006
THREE Cumbrian climbers were attacked by a polar bear 2,000m up in the Arctic mountains - as they played Trivial Pursuit.
The bear poked its head into their tent as they sat playing the game and the group then had to scare the huge animal off with flares and making continuous noise for 10 hours.
The eight polar explorers, including John Starbuck, 52, of Egremont, were recovering after completing the first successful winter ascent of the Arctic’s highest mountain when the bear appeared.
It ripped three of their five tents apart before the adventurers scared it off by setting off rocket flares and banging pans.
The team maintained an all-night vigil, making noise continuously for 10 hours until dawn, to ensure the bear did not come back.
They had just entered the history books by becoming the first people to climb the 3,693m mountain Gunnbjorns Fjeld in the punishing Arctic winter, when temperatures drop as low as minus 60C.
Expedition co-leader Paul Walker, 40, from Kendal, Cumbria, raised the alarm on Saturday night after the polar bear slashed its way into his tent.
As half the team played Trivial Pursuit in another tent, the bear peered in through the tent door of the expedition’s other leader, Baz Roberts who is from Staveley near Kendal.
He and his tent mate Adrian Pedley, 44, from Oldham, shouted and threw equipment at the animal in an attempt to scare it off.
Mr Roberts, 44, from Kendal, Cumbria, said: **"The bear attack was the most frightening face-to-face encounter of my life with a killer animal and you just react on gut instinct to survive.
**
What they wouldn't have given for some meaningful heat.
By the way Gunnbjørn means Gunn's bear! (He was the first Viking to sight Greenland)
It might be further noted that the inventor of Trivial Pursuit passed away this week!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Hopefully he didn't die of fright.
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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"It is interesting that Canadians rarely carry handguns, in the wilderness particularly. Canadians who live or work in wilderness areas may have access to a rifle or shotgun, or even carry one, but very few hikers/canoeists/mountaineers etc carry a gun of any kind. Despite this, we don't seem to have any worse problem with bear attacks, maulings, or deaths."
BC's population is about 4.5 million.
Vancouver metro population is just over 2 million and Canada 3rd largest metro area. Not a lot of people in the rest of BC's 360K square miles.
The Canadian laws are pretty draconian on handguns by any account. Not easy to own or transport a hand gun in Canada. Rifles or shotguns in Canada not much of an issue. Obviously you are not a handgun owner or you would understand why you don't see many handguns in Canada.
On the other hand Americans have fairly easy access to handguns, and a big gun culture where they are generally accepted. Few more Americans (308M) than Canadains (35M) and becasue of that a LOT more American's hike, canoe and climb.
If you want a numbers game the total of gun packing Americans is a very low percentage in the same crowd of hikers/canoeists/mountaineers. I'd bet our percentage of gun packers in the same outdoors pursuits is actually lower than Canada's.
All that and we actually have a choice if we want to carry a gun or not. Not so much for our neighbors up north.
Fairly common to have bear attacks in our last remaining grizzly habitat because we have more people infringing on those areas unlike the majority of BC.
I suspect we agree that bear spray and a bear education is a better answer than a gun in so many ways.
But spinning a obvious antigun sentiment isn't helpful either. I don't consider myself pro gun on the subject but certainly enjoy the right of having an option in my own decision making.
And again i do find it interesting your friends have had injuries by bear attacks and mine have not.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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And again i do find it interesting your friends have had injuries by bear attacks and mine have not. It was common for years for BC climbers to spend the summer "in the bush", doing mineral exploration, forestry work, and later treeplanting. Usually in very wild places, often only with air access. Plus of course climbing and hiking and such. But a summer in the bush equals more than 100 days, and the time adds up very quickly. Most of those I know who've had bear "incidents" had them in context of bush jobs, not climbing or hiking. Which makes sense - they probably spent ten times as many days in the bush working as they did climbing and hiking.
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RDB
Social climber
way out there
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Anders same here. Even made a trip to Williams Lk to plant trees. But most of my spare time was spent in Alaska on summer jobs. All fly ins and with everyone packing by choice or by requirement of the contract.
Even a 4" 44 mag gets really old if you have to carry it every day.
Many bear encounters within our group, way before bear spray, and only one dead bear. He (a black bear) was shot by a camp manager or the cook can't remember which, not by one of us. And most everyone though it uneccessary.
But then we walked or flew out of camp every morning and saw bear every day.
But no bear injuries to date.
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mottaaa
Trad climber
tucson
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Check out these links.
http://www.blackbearheaven.com/grizzly-bear-kills-campers.htm
http://www.adn.com/2009/08/13/897940/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-to.html
nickd
"Sorry Rox, but I have no desire to get eaten. I make this happen by not going anywhere where I am afraid of the animals."
It's not about being afraid of the animals. It's about being prepared for that slim chance you might be confronted by a predator. If you don't want to carry, fine. Don't judge others who do. The guy above was waking on the road near his house. Do you really avoid going into the wilderness because you're afraid of the animals? Damn, if I lived my life that way, I wouldn't climb in southern Az. What with all the drug and human trafficers. You stumble on to one of them animals, who knows what might happen. Oh, and them pesky cougars.
"It really got my heart pumping but I didn't come out wanting a gun."
If you hadn't been alone, i.e. your girlfrien/wife/children were there, you might have thought differently. There was a pair of hikers, in Co.I believe, a husband and wife. They noticed they were being stalked by a bear. They changed their direction of travel a few times, dropped their packs, the bear persisted. They laid on the ground(play dead theory)and the bear began mauling. LSS the husband went for help, the wife died. If they had been prepared, they could have done all of the above and then shot it as a last resort. They would still be happily married.
frankie
"unbelievable, a f*#king animal shot for no reason in a national park. one of the main reasons they were created was to protect wildlife."
Bear charges human. Human shoots bear. Sounds like human had very good reason.
You wanna here about animals shot for no reason? Sabino Canyon recreation area. Mountain lions moved into the area of Sabino Canyon. Local moms were afraid because they took their children in Sabino on morning/evening walks. Local news did their interviews with locals. When a student of an elementary school was asked, he/she said "we need to learn to live with them". The city covertly killed them. The lions had harmed no one.
There is always a risk of diing when we go into the wilderness. The level at which we choose to prepare ourselves for surviving offsets that risk.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 3, 2010 - 08:59pm PT
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So, despite others saying it's so I'm not really afraid of animals. I see bear and cougars and elk on a pretty regular basis. Even a moose every once in a while.
So making me out as some fraidey cat is really bogus. Remember, I go out in the woods all the time sans heater.
Seems to me that people who have to have a gun with them are the real fraidey cats. Also the group making consistently bad decisions, putting themselves in very dangerous situations, falsley believing their gun will always bail them out.
I don't put myself in bad situations. And the wife and family argument is equally bogus for the very same reason. I would never put my wife or child in harms way, fantasizing my gun will stop everything bad. It's just not so.
So, go ahead and lay on all the slurs on me you want. It does not bother me. But at least read what I've written and try to make a real answer to what I.m saying.
After all, do you really want to be emulating Roxjoc?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Does your wife know that you see a cougar on a regular basis?
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