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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 28, 2010 - 05:13pm PT
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Your ava-tard is more creepy.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 28, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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When I get back from a few days of climbing I think I'll throw up a few Bible verses extolling murder, slavery etc. If you throw out verses to "prove" a point you should be able to deal with the unbelievable amount of weird verses in the "Holy Book." Some of that stuff could get a guy in trouble if he wrote it today.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 28, 2010 - 10:23pm PT
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don't know why go-b always has to totally spam these threads with his cut-and-paste posts...
if I need to refer to the Bible I can do it on my own... I think it is very annoying that he cannot make an argument at all, but just post up what someone else had to say.
So for go-b, without referring to the Bible, how do we know that the Bible is the literal word of God?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 28, 2010 - 10:59pm PT
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it's your personal choice to believe
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R.B.
Trad climber
Land of the Lahar
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May 28, 2010 - 11:05pm PT
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In my life .... I have been closest to the almighty ... usually at the last pitch of a route on E.C. ... but with that said ... God is God and Jesus is Jesus. They are close but not equivalent!
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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May 28, 2010 - 11:06pm PT
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We all have a choice, and that's what the Bible said!
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R.B.
Trad climber
Land of the Lahar
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May 28, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Man wrote the Bible ... let's leave it at that!
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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May 28, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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But not gory for gore's sake, but part of the story!
God is merciful, but He's still God!
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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May 28, 2010 - 11:37pm PT
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John 14:6-7 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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May 28, 2010 - 11:38pm PT
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meh.....
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 29, 2010 - 04:29am PT
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go-B,
Do not be discouraged. The Word of GOD unaltered is best really.
They speak to the heart and cut through the chatter like no words of man can ever do.
They are the Words of Life.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/kjv/kjv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4760421
John.1:1-18 (KJV)
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6] There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7] The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8] He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9] That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[15] John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
[16] And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
[17] For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
[18] No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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May 29, 2010 - 10:21am PT
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paul roehl: interesting observation on big bang and god. not having a scientific education and not having gotten real far in mathematics, i find myself at a stopping point with this, which is classically called the cosmological argument. it's always an interesting argument, but i think it always remains an argument, never a proof. (mathematicians love that word, "proof", and with good cause.)
what i have done ever since (humanities) graduate school--nearly 30 years now--is to read the popular books on physics, written by heavy-duty physicists for the curious public, difficult books but it seems always worthwhile. you get a look at the great insights a physicist has into the nature of the big bang. i don't think any of us on this thread has this education, and i don't know of any physicists who have ventured to speculate on the (using aristotle's word) metaphysics of it, but that would be the next step.
until that happens, i suggest all the know-it-alls here take a tour of fermilab and crack some books on advanced calculus. physics IS related to the god question. einstein, who craved to know the thoughts of god, went a long way with that desire, but then he got into an argument with niels bohr and said, "god does not play dice". bohr showed that he (he?) does, in what we call quantum mechanics, and that was just the beginning of the modern debate.
"For instance, liquidity cannot be taken from water, nor can heat be taken from fire. Similarly, the eternal function of the eternal living entity cannot be taken from the living entity."
"i cast for comfort i can no more get
"than blind eyes in their dark can day
"or thirst can find thirst's all-in-all
"in all a world of wet." -- g.m. hopkins
pate: that quote from matthew actually got me to crack open a bible. christianity is not a nice religion. but it gave us mickey mouse.
i knew gobee was gonna paste the whole effing bible into that chat window. i guess he won't have anything more to say. anybody gonna miss him?
just a note on the bible and murder. for years i've told people who want to post the ten commandments in public buildings that i was all in favor of it, provided they begin with the fifth commandment and erect it in 40-foot-high marble block lettering on the lawn of the pentagon. then i had a conversation with a jewish friend who told me it's not "thou shalt not kill" but "thou shalt not murder". i used to cover the courts for little newspapers, and the laws about murder are about as complex as it gets, going from involuntary manslaughter and negligent homicide all the way to the first degree, which requires "malice aforethought". then there's the business of jihad, which the popes like to call "just war". (how do you mean "just", padre?)
ah, gobee came back. somehow i knew it would happen. i like what he says here:
"Well I can't, but it say's it is, so if you test it by, AS TRUE, only God would say what's in it!
"Jesus is either nuts, a liar, or the Son of God, for me He IS the Son of God!"
i like his punctuation too--those exclamation points help a lot.
"well, i can't ..."
thanks for the honesty, gobe. you've made it to square one with me.
could it be at all possible to have a "son of god" who was also both obviously sane and a teller of truth? i don't think so. reading through that passage from matthew which pate quoted up there, i see why christianity has always been a disruptive religion, and why christian nations can never live at peace with each other, much less the rest of the world. other religions do slightly--only slightly--better in that department. what christianity has done, however, is to spread itself and jump out ahead in political power based on scientific technology. it also offers extraordinary culture. i see god in mozart, not jesus, and the likes of mozart--and the physicists--are really what makes the eurodiaspora think it's the cutting edge.
science--even as it figured into columbus's sailing ships--has been behind the spread of this religion, truly foisted by sword. i often think of it as disease. i see nothing but dis-ease beating at its heart, turning people against each other, as predicted in matthew. there is no beauty, no truth. if there were, there would be integrity between what it says and what it does.
and where is it taking us? tripl7 tells you up there--expect a winnowing-down "tribulation". jesse ventura, who went south with all that 9/11 jibberish, predicts the same. god, stuff like this just makes me wanna love god--or else.
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go-B
climber
In God We Trust
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May 29, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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The first five is man toward God, the second is man toward man!
Ever since Cain and Able, there has been murder...
The Ten Commandments
Exodus 20:1-17, And God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.”
I like a little Hot Sauce with my Taco's!
Either the Bible is False or True, 50/50 chance, Heads we win, Tails you loose!
Don't forget to take the keys out of your donkey!
See below; Klimmer/Brilliant!!!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 29, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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go-B,
It is much better odds than that, more like 100% in GOD's favor. GOD is Ominipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent. He knows all.
He knows the past, present, and future. If anyone wants to know they can read the Good Book that he miracalously had written through fallible but humble men of GOD who were inspired directly by GOD.
It tells all in common Hebrew, and now English, as well as many interenational languages that it has been translated into. It is the most widely published Book and has broken all records ever since the Gutenberg Press.
Brilliant really on GOD's part. I can just imagine this occuring . . .
Man on Judgement Day: "I never knew the truth. No one told me. How could I know if they were telling me the truth? How was I to know that that Book called The Holy Bible that sat on the dusty shelf or that was in every hotel/motel room dresser drawer was your Word and told the Past, Present, and Future? No one ever told me that Jesus Christ was your only begotten Son and that he died on the Cross to Save all Mankind from their Sins and reunite man with you, our Creator. No one ever told me all I had to do was believe in the Word of GOD, ask Jesus to save me and it was done. And that you would come back into my life and change me for the better, and my life would be new and I would treat others now as I always wanted to be treated, with love, care, dignity, and respect. No one ever told me these things." And the excuses just go on and on . . .
GOD on Judgement Day: Well let's just rewind the virtual memory tapes shall we? Look many told you. You ignored them. You made fun of them. You ridiculed them. You argued with them. You called them many nasty names. My Word tells all. It tells the past, the present, and the future. All you had to do was to read it. It was widely available to you. You lived in a Country where the Bible was nearly everywhere, and often freely available to you, and in your language. The entire Book the Old and the New, talks openly about my Son Jesus Christ, who exactly he is, and what he did, and what he would do for all Mankind.
And in your time, near the end of the ages, when computers were invented and widely available across the World and almost in every household, they discovered my hidden messages, my Code, that I my word prophecied would occur. It is my stamp of approval and watermark if you will, that indeed these are all inspired words. These hidden messages, these Codes further exbound on my word, acknowledge wonderful achievements of Man that he has done and would do through my grace and the giving of knowledge. These hidden messages told of distant past events and scientific discoveries that were hidden that modern science would discover in due time. It told of past events, current events, and events to take place in the near future. It celebrated wonderful men and women of talent and knowledge, whether they knew me or not.
All of this was available to you and you ignored it, pushed it away, and even sometimes riled and fought against it.
It pleased me to do it this way. The non-intellectual and the intellectual are on equal understanding. It was easy for everyone to come to the truth.
You have no excuse.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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May 29, 2010 - 01:44pm PT
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Ridiculous scare tactics, dude.
Who scared you?
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WBraun
climber
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May 29, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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13 “You shall not murder.
Misinterpreted to fit their agenda.
It's Thou shalt not KILL (not murder).
This is why so called Christians have so many problems.
They say man has dominion over animals and can slaughter and kill to eat them because they have no soul.
They say only humans have soul. Ridiculous!
Every living entity has soul.
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R.B.
Trad climber
Land of the Lahar
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May 29, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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"And well you should not! For my ally is the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. The Force surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you, me, the tree, the rock...everywhere! Even between the land and the ship." -- Yoda to Luke Skywalker
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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May 29, 2010 - 02:09pm PT
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Klimmer, et al....
Have you studied bible history (as opposed to "biblical history")? The texts were written by men - the apostles, etc. Not "GOD". Some were published in the bible, others were rejected as "heresy." Not very God-like, if some GOD-written texts were rejected by men, eh?
The book of John was the most radical example of a book that was in line with the views the Christians. It's tone is much different than Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
Example for 10 points - Who was Constantine?
For 20 points - If the biblical texts (the writings of the apostles) are the word of God, why are some of them not in the bible?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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May 29, 2010 - 02:11pm PT
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Wbraun,
I agree with you :-))
That is why GOD even cares about the Sparrow that has fallen. :-))
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