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slobmonster
Trad climber
OAK (nee NH)
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May 12, 2010 - 01:42am PT
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> one of the merits of the EDK is that the knot rides away from the rock- less prone to wearing through the sheath.
Actually, I believe it's the opposite. The EDK concentrates wear on the 2 strands where they emerge from the knot and bend at 90 degrees.
The rewoven Figure Eight puts wear at random points on the surface of the knot.
I agree, though, that toproping/lowering will probably wear the rope a lot more than pulling a rappel.
And that's why it's not an appropriate knot to join two ropes to climb on, or from which to be lowered. For descending (only), the EDK/flat-overhand will only see wear when it's pulled (... not under tension as in a toprope load).
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 02:07am PT
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"Let's see ...
The original mistake was forgotten biner.
Then everyone runs amok in this thread going every which way how to rappel.
Good grief ...."
True WB, but what the overall discussion (IMHO) is about is possibly preventing the next "forgotten" thing.
Granted there is a lot of words, but I don't see a problem or issue with that...
If it makes even one person think a little deeper or influences a 2nd/3rd check at the rap station that's good...right?
Cheers,
DD
ps...and it is climbing related :0)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 12, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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Dr Sprock-
Dr. Sprock wrote on the companion thread-
"this was tragic but i am thinking it could have been worse.
if the first guy does not pull the knot, and the second guy does, then we could have lost both climbers. "
How so?
EDIT Ignore Brawny. His wisecracks are just part of his latest "social experiment." This thread's useful. It's already encouraged me to replace my old ATC.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Topic Author's Reply - May 12, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
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...and in respect (because there would be varying opinions), I thought it would be worth keeping the discussion off the other thread...
Cheers,
DD
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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May 12, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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I would never top rope on a EDK. Top rope anchors and knots need to be among the most bomber setups because you can't keep an eye on them and they are under lots of movement. I could see an EDK being loosened during TRing and coming undone... scary.
I also cringe when I see people top roping on 2 quickdraws without locking biners on two different bolts. I always used two opposed biners when a rope disconnecting could mean a fall. Two non locking biners seperate from each other could unclip.
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 01:42pm PT
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^^^ Ditto - toproping has lots more rope wear and jerking around of the setup, when you're out-of-sight, so having extra redundancy seems extra important.
I always use a double fisherman's (for TR) and an EDK (for rapping), but again, would like to hear more comments.
P.S. I like this thread too - I think it is important to review rappelling/TR techniques every so often, as I know I personally haven't thought of everything (that could go wrong).
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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May 12, 2010 - 03:13pm PT
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another trick; re: slobmasters second photo (and repeated by Clint), from the photo (rope through extended ATC, then down through lower biner attached to belay donut --- you can now clip a third biner into upper locker (blue one), then run the rope up back up and through this third biner; so rope goes through ATC, down to lower biner, back up through upper biner, then down to your hand. Your break is now downward, and the extra zig adds more breaking. Good for pig assisted rappels. I suppose you could even wrap around this loop even more times although I've never felt the need.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
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All that sh#t is totally unnessicary. just add an extra biner to the normal place that you use a biner with the ATC. It doubbles or tripples your brakeing power.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 12, 2010 - 03:22pm PT
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RM, that is the method I described above. And TMC, doubling the biners isn't always enough, depending on rope thickness, coating, and amount of wear.
As for leaving an unconscious rappeller in place while you prussik up, assess injuries, and then do...something...a lot of time is going to go by, and suspension trauma is a serious issue, in addition to the fact that now someone else will be taking on a lot more risk. Unless the terrain is very slabby, my guess is the victim will almost always be better served by being lowered via the fireman-belay and gotten out of a hanging position.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 12, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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RGold: what are you going to switch to now that the TRE is no longer being manufactured?
Maybe we should donate one to Mal at Trango and see if he can come up with something similar.
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moronbros
Mountain climber
Seatte, North Cascades
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May 12, 2010 - 03:57pm PT
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There are some pretty simple bits of logic you can pull out of this discussion:
 When you are tired, make sure to check everything and add backups if needed.
When you want to rap a full rope length and you only have a single rope, use a light retrieval line and a big knot at the top. rap a single strand.
When your rope is frozen or wet, your friction devices (ATC, pusiks) will be affected.
If you're lowering heavy stuff, add more friction.
If you have no idea what you are doing and you find yourself at a rap anchor, get a good smart climbing partner.
Also to note:
Talking at belays, although you might think that is fun, kills a few people here and there. Don't let it happen to you.
Always test your rap with full body weight before disconnecting your personal anchor.
Rappelling is the perfect conversation to have when you want someone to really learn about tradeoffs.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 12, 2010 - 03:59pm PT
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The few times i had a worn out atc and skinny ropes adding an extra biner seemed to just about bring me to a stop....
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 12, 2010 - 04:08pm PT
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Ghost, I'm using the Petzl Reverso 3. It is a poor substitute for a non-worn TRE, but whaddya gonna do? I'd be happy to give Mal my TRE's; I sure wish someone would come up with something that really works well with half ropes.
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Paul_in_Van
Trad climber
Near Squampton
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May 12, 2010 - 04:20pm PT
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Errr, Moronbros have you actually read any of this thread?
I hope for your sake that you have a smart climbing partner as you suggested...
P
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Augie
Mountain climber
South Pasadena, CA
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May 12, 2010 - 05:16pm PT
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Re rap self-belays. I'm with in the below-the-device camp. Have used prusik above -the- device often over the years and it is prone to get stuck more often than an autoblock. But one thing u need to watch out for w/ the autoblock is it jamming against your rap device if you happen to take your brake hand off the rope while allowing the autoblock to hold your weight (if that happens, bye, bye). For this reason, I usually extend my device so that it's in front of me and can't touch my autoblock.
Only time I wouldn't use a self-belay is if you're rapping in a canyon near a waterfall or if you have to land in a hydralic. If you get caught in one of those situations with a stuck prusik or autoblock you could easily drown.
My 2 cents. Good discussion.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 12, 2010 - 10:31pm PT
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i was thinkin that a big flat washer from the hardware store, probably about 39 cents, with a hole a bit bigger than the rope, maybe 1/8" thick, 3 inches round, you thread the rope thru, then tie whatever knot you want, it ain't gonna creep thru a hole that small and ruin your day.
make sure you camfer any sharp edges.
maybe make it 1/4" just in case.
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moronbros
Mountain climber
Seatte, North Cascades
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May 12, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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Hey Paul, care to prevent my untimely death by enlightening me on exactly what I'm going to kill myself with?
Just curious..
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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May 13, 2010 - 12:00am PT
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Maybe there was a misinterpretation somewhere. Seemed like a fine synoposis to me. Now who's buying the drinks?
Hey, the Taco clock's about 6 minutes fast, what gives?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 13, 2010 - 12:46am PT
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it's called Taco Time.
thats how long it takes to cook two jack tacos for 99, which i am going to munch on right now.
no, it's not dog food, just tastes like it,
so what if J Box is owned by ralston purina,
really, a very healthy food product consisting of soy meal and unsaturated lettuce.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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May 17, 2010 - 12:06pm PT
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Clint-
Re wear on EDK-
I rapped Royal Arches, w/ 2 ropes: 9.8, & 7.8 tied w/ EDK. 6 or 8 consecutive double rope raps
Result- very slight wear at 7.8 rope coming out of knot.
Will post pic.
I doubt I'll repeat with different knot, but can compare to a toprope w/ figure 8 at some point.
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