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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Mar 21, 2010 - 02:37pm PT
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"What other people say, media, photographers, etc., have no bearing."
Perhaps for some, but everyone I know rolls a little bit differently when they know they are being judged, for better or worse. If media had no bearing, media wouldn't be part of it. Have you ever gone to work when you didn't feel like it?
Or maybe I read you wrong, and you are saying that solo climbing involves one person?
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Mar 21, 2010 - 02:46pm PT
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I tried to find online the video that Ed had seen. I found a trailer for the Moonlight Buttress solo, in which Cedar Wright has a voice over, "Free soloing is the ultimate, most pure form of rock climbing known to man."
I have always objected to this idea that hard free soloing is the ultimate form of rock climbing (Royal started down that path in the early 70s), in the same way that I object to the fastest ascent or hardest sport climb are the ultimate form of climbing. I cannot think of any direct statements from free soloists that they think they are somehow defining the ultimate form of rock climbing; they all seem to take a more private view of their motivations. But in reading the comments posted on the site with the Moonlight Buttress trailer, Cedar's notion seems to be accepted.
It also seems to me that Alex is implicitly promoting that notion. Of course Alex is free to climb anyway he wants and free to make a living selling his skills to video makers. But I cannot image a sane person not grounding their actions within an inclusive view of what others think. Alex is promoting hard free soloing for all the reasons that he cares about.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 21, 2010 - 04:00pm PT
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im sure that the rewards and the potential rewards explode in beautiful feelings within alex.
we shant piss on his fire.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 21, 2010 - 04:21pm PT
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Each person who thinks it makes a difference whether something has been done unroped, by thinking this, encourages someone to attempt it.
This entire thread, including Drummond's OP is a de facto promotion of such an act.
I can understand a person deciding they want to go unroped.
I can't understand how a bystander could be willing to encourage others to do this.
On a slightly different subject.
The NPS prohibits base jumping because it is not an appropriate use of the Park, however that is determined.
Ask yourself, why that question will not arise as regards climbing should there be a frankly shocking high profile incident.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 21, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
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the only significant difference is who alex becomes in his own heart, his own eyes, and his own mind.
we, the specatators, receive only a fraction of that, on the periphery of his accomplishments, and / or failures.
he encourages me to dream.
there, he has succeeded.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 21, 2010 - 04:50pm PT
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it seems that folks need to proceed with their nightmares.
let alex go forth with his dreams, please.
...
i was going to stop and think,
but instead i chose to dream.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Mar 21, 2010 - 04:55pm PT
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How do you know what is his dream or his nightmare? What you really care about are your own.
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taorock
Trad climber
Okanogan, WA
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Mar 21, 2010 - 04:57pm PT
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Good heavens. ED's comments are no different than what everyone has experienced from the old guard. Good thing too. I remember pissing off knicker and boot clad climbers when I wore tennis shoes and shorts on talus slopes. In defiance we started running down them with our hands in our pockets. Yet it was a knicker clad oldster who taught me the ropes (thanks Mr. Munger).
We are fortunate to be in an activity (sport, passion, profession) where old and young are mixed, as well as the well off and dirtbags; educated and not. I would hope that Mr. H is wise enough to listen to ED's statements. Doesn't mean he needs to follow them.
We really don't climb in a vacuum or without the benefit of those pioneers that came before. IMO, to the extent that Mr. H's drive is powered by the spotlight of bystanders is the proportion lending legitimacy to ED's statements. If Mr H is soloing for his own reasons, I'm fine with it. I just object to the overt marketing of climbing in general. There is the rub, it is rather subjective especially seeing as I have soloed myself - although never at my climbing limit (except for a highball boulder problem or two;-)
The younger generation seems to have a whole different view of documentation and expression than I have. Likely a generational divide. I've viewed the video's of soloists wearing a cam on their helmet and quite enjoyed them, but I just don't have it in me to be a bystander/audience/filmer to the making of an extreme solo. I've seen enough gore in my life, thank you. I don't watch auto races either and prefer uncrowded backwater crags as well.
Go with grace all involved,
tao
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10b4me
Ice climber
Ice Caves at the Sads
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Mar 21, 2010 - 05:29pm PT
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Doesn't matter jack sh'it what anyone says here or anywhere, as it's all talk.
When you're the climber ready to go, ... all your own internal psych and spirit will dictate what you will ultimately do or not do, regardless of all the chatter from the outside world.
once again, Werner hits the nail on the head.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 21, 2010 - 05:30pm PT
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nightmares equal fears.
dreams equal vision.
let yours, and my, and sir alex's life proceed by their own design.
melissa dear,
you may drop your dave turner borne grudge with me.
i've grown beyond that experience.
have you please,
i care about melissa and alex and ed drummond and the angels in between us.
you don't know what i care about.
spry girl.
your current vision between us is blinded by anger and angst. you'll not see clearly til you let that go.
sincerely,
the dumb asse.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Mar 21, 2010 - 06:21pm PT
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My Dave Turner what? I think you're confusing me with someone else.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 21, 2010 - 10:27pm PT
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Debating the pros and cons of free soloing isn’t what I find interesting, or particularly revealing in this type of conversation, because those stances and their merits are patently obvious to me (how people go about debating it is revealing, however).
Debate doesn’t really seek to reveal truth, although dialectic can be useful to eliminate extraneous and contradictory propositions, generally debate and argumentation is about winning and losing. What is honed there is strategy, tactics, presentation. It doesn’t seem flexible and open enough to nurture insight. People don’t go to court to seek truth, they go there to win.
I’d certainly be very careful to presume to know anything about Alex, and personally choose to leave him out of it.
What’s interesting here, for me, lies more within the contextual: on one hand are the changes that climbing has undergone in the last 30 years, primarily signified by a much higher exposure to media and the resulting action that may have upon the soloist. On the other hand is the age old curiosity about what drives those among us who do very different things with their lives under extreme risk, carrying a burden of socially unacceptable costs.
While I might agree that publicly spurring the soloist may be considered an irresponsible act, I don’t agree with the extreme which JStan suggested that merely tabling the discussion is in some way destructive. I get that high profile argumentation can turn the eye of authorities and yes it could lead to regulation, but, nevertheless I do not think that constructive criticism and engagement of the topic should be avoided out of fear for those outcomes.
Here’s an excerpt from a book which I find it be quite germane to the topic, although it does extend from a different milieu, from that of fighter pilots during World War II and although we might be quick to characterize fighting for one’s country as ill-compared to a “hobby” such as rockclimbing, take particular note of the degree to which the young pilot is given to the romance of his pursuit and perhaps beyond that the level of particular meaning in which he finds himself ensconced:
(excerpt from "Forever Flying", RD "Bob" Hoover)
I did NOT post this passage as a transparent defense of free soloing.
I offer it more as an exhibit toward curiosity and inquiry.
I posted it as an example of what makes people who they are and how they tick.
Especially when young.
It is also no accident that I chose this passage because the young pilot draws upon notions which touch upon, perhaps in a roundabout way, Edwin Drummond’s final statement in the OP, namely “And she will find you”. (Both the notion of female companionship, as elaborated by the young pilot, exchanged/equated with his love for flying, and sadly, the mother, as described by Bob Hoover as she searched for her son).
Some people find meaning in places which are indescribable to others.
And yes there are consequences.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 21, 2010 - 11:15pm PT
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Nice post Tar!
That one may take me a bit to digest.....
I definitely see both ( or more ) sides to this discussion. I am here to learn and listen and not try to bulldoze people in most discussions I ever participate in.
In this one I kind of came down with a gut reaction, due mostly, to my distaste for the media hype/ sponsorship etc. around some of the modern accomplishments. That seems to me to be an entirely wrong reason to undertake such a climb.
I'm not saying that is why Alex or someone else would do it. But I think it's more of a factor than most here seem willing to admit.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 21, 2010 - 11:20pm PT
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Not that you and I could claim much direct experience with it, but I'd bet in modern times it's unrealistic to portray a separation, a firewall if you will, between the two any a longer.
The question is one of degree; how much influence and what kind of qualitative effect it has on choices.
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful, BC
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Mar 21, 2010 - 11:21pm PT
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its symbiotic in a positive way, possibly
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Mar 21, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
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Yes symbiotic.
And it can be positive.
Although a two-way street, money can bring opportunity.
Exploration and standards evolve, always at a price, but things happen to push the forefront of activities.
Has anybody seen a documentary called Steep?
A really good treatise on extreme skiing.
And there is death, very poignant death.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Mar 21, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
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You're right Tar.
We labored away in more or less pure obscurity, for the love of the game.
There are still many who do it for that alone.
Some great things get done out of the spotlight.
I don't know if there are many who actually shun the lights.....
Or would we all flock to it like moths?
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Tahoe climber
climber
Davis these days
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:47am PT
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Responses still tell more about poster than about Alex. Think about it.
And, Alex knows what he's doing.
No free-soloist in history has ever been fooled about what the consequences are of failure.
TC
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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:52am PT
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Poetic in a time of reaction - very nice and caring post from someone who has been to the edge.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Mar 22, 2010 - 09:07am PT
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Nobodies pissing on any Fire Norwegian. This is much more than some exestential fart into the ether.Perhaps I have to see a little to much reality everday, but you sir, should see a little more.
radical,
my wife is a nurse. thus, by association, i chew on sinewy reality often.
im raising two daughters - lots of reality there.
i pay taxes, i pause dreams. - reality? check.
i've been forced to free solo at my leading limit at night in the rain - up and then back down-climb. thus i share wee empathy with the subject of this thread.
your reflections are valid. aren't mine?
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