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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 11:57am PT
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What is the source of your ancient Aramaic scroll, Studly? I'd never heard this before.
John
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:19pm PT
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This scroll was translated from the archives of the Vatican back in the 1920's. There is another later scroll copy of this in the Library of the Hapsburgs as well. It details the Essenes and who they were. Remember, this was done long before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the current output of learning of the Essenes being the early Christians. The Dead Sea Scrolls were not from the Essenes but were taken to the Essenes to be hidden before the Jewish Temple was razed by the Romans. This link allow you to read the direct translations. Very powerful stuff, and unfortunately not in line with most of the current Christian beliefs.
http://www.thenazareneway.com/index_essene_gospels_of_peace.htm
Peace be upon you my friends!
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
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"Poetic, but what a load of wishful thinking. Life just isn't that easy. Even if you believe in the power of prayer."
pretty much sums up obama's campaign and first year in office
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
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Thanks, Studly.
I was aware generally of Essene writings, but not this specific passage. I taught a brief adult Sunday School class on the sects prevelant at the time of Christ (and specifically the Herodians, the Pharisees, Saduccees, Essenes and Zealots) in 2008, and used several primary sources (and a lot of Josephus) in the course. I wish I knew of this cite sooner.
I would add, though, that the early church was also familiar with these writings and rejected them from the canon of scripture for non-authenticity. Those who see scripture as a creation of the church will, or course, give a different and more cynical reason.
I personally find this passage sufficiently inconsistent with everything else written about Jesus, and with Essene reverence for scripture (consider, e.g. their preservation efforts in the Dead Sea Scrolls) to believe the canon, and not this.
In any case, thanks again for the reference, and for a non-judgmental reply to my question.
John
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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Have you ever considered that if the dipole moment of water is not what it is no life could exist.
Or that if the a large asteroid did not hit the earth 65 million years ago we still would be living with dinosaurs.
Juan
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jstan
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
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"Or that if the a large asteroid did not hit the earth 65 million years ago we still would be living with dinosaurs."
Got news for you. The dinosaurs are still here.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 01:56pm PT
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I just need to say again that THIS IS BIBLE STUDY. Fine. Have at it. Enjoy. But PLEASE take this somewhere outside of a climbing forum!! This thread is bumping too many other truly worthy climbing threads into oblivion. I don't have the luxury of time to be on here all day. When I do I find really good climbing stuff has been bumped from the front page because of this thread and other political/religious threads like it.
I didn't even know about the Half Dome cable permits issue until I got Chris' ST e-mail newsletter. Why? Cause it keeps getting bumped from the front page by stuff like this.
C'mon guys. Some of us climbers here who have limited time to cruise this site would like to see climbing stuff. If you want to debate the Bible, great...have at it. But please stop doing it here cause it is causing non-Bible study loving climbers to miss out on some great CLIMBING threads.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
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For awhile it appeared we had agreement to concentrate OT posts to a few threads. Since posts in such threads are off off topic as much as on and no one reads them all - the extended threads work.
As long as people cooperate.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:05pm PT
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JElezarian, I'm trying to get to know you better.
You're a Christian because (a) you support the Christian narrative (say for its life-affirming inspiring stories, principles and themes), (b) you believe (in a for-real sense) that the historical Jesus was / is God Jesus, (c) you believe all the above, (d) other.
I ask because there is a difference between (a) and (b) and many "Christians" nowadays have loosened up on the literalist interpretation that the historical Jesus was God (is God).
Can one be a Christian today without supporting the traditional theological doctrine that Jesus is God, Jesus was God?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:06pm PT
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Fluoride- It's the off-season. Geez. I'm interested in the philosophies and beliefs of other climbers. Esp those here at the Taco, which are the cream of the crop.
I'm pretty sure when it's climbing season again, just a month a way or so, things will get back on topic.
EDIT I just checked. Right now, this is the only thread on the first page dealing with religion and theology. That other one-- from Norton-- is way down in the mix. Just sayin.
And it took me just 5 seconds to scan the first page for new on-topic climbing titles. So, ease up lieutenant.
Well, Norton's thread is now back on top.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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HFCS, to answer your question: No. THE fundamental precept of Christianity is that Jesus is God. If you don't buy that, you aren't a Christian.
That belief has raised some technical issues, such as how do we reconcile God as portrayed in the OT vs. Jesus in the NT. One is lex talionus and the other is a loving hippy. In the early days of Christianity, a group called the Marcionites felt that these two entities are so different that they must be two separate being. The early Catholic Church clarified that at the Counsel of Nicea by creating the Nicene Crede, which is still recited at Mass today. It begins with: "We believe in One God..."
Catholics came up with the notion of the Trinity to explain how God the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit are all one but separate at the same time. Pretty much impossible to wrap your head around in any logical fashion, which is where that leap of faith comes in handy.
John, re the early sects, I recommend The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels, a divinity professor at Princeton for a good read about that topic.
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Fluoride
Trad climber
Hollywood, CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
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High Fructose Corn Syrup....for MANY of us, climbing season NEVER ends. It's Joshua Tree season right now. And Woodson. And the Alabama Hills. Yosemite - the Cookie! And Bishop. That's NOW!! Cochise? Lemon? Red Rocks? ALL IN SEASON. And I'd love to hear everyone's stories from those places. But I can't if this thread keeps bumping them off the front page.
Then soon the rest of the Valley, then Tuolumne and the Sierra in the months ahead. Believe it or not, climbing is not a seasonal activity. Many of us live it year round. And those that can't chase it from place to place where it IS in season.
Just because you aren't able to climb right now doesn't mean YOU need to turn this place into a Bible study. There's plenty of great climbing going on right now. Only it's hard to hear about when Bible study is constantly bumping those threads off the main page.
Seriously man, if you want to do Bible study, there's a ton of websites for it. For those of us that want to climb, not so much. So quit bogarting this site for your own purposes. I want to hear climbing stories when I come here. Not debates over Jesus.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 10, 2010 - 03:37pm PT
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HFCS,
I believe that Jesus is God ("Before Abraham was, I am.") I agree with Fat Dad -- that statement is foundational to Christianity.
Flouride,
Where else do I get to discuss my favorite verses with other Christian climbers? If there's another website, please point me to it. Also, where else do I get to have a dialogue with other intelligent climbers like HFCS, you, Jingy and many others, with whom I often disagree, but whose contributions I value?
The casual reader would think with all of our OT disagreements that we have nothing in common. In fact, we all (or at least most all) have climbing in common, which for me is a lot.
I guess ultimately, I don't understand why you and others want to post repeatedly that you don't want this thread on ST? That only boosts it to the top of the list. Why not ignore it?
John
Edit:
Thanks, Fat Dad. I have browsed that work, but don't yet own it. Then again, I'm comfortable enough with the canon as is that I'm not sure I'll do any more than read it once.
J.
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gazela
Boulder climber
Albuquerque, NM
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Feb 10, 2010 - 04:36pm PT
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Proverbs 21:9 - "It is better to dwell in a corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman in a wide house."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Feb 10, 2010 - 06:06pm PT
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Thanks for the replies, guys.
Fluoride called me Syrup! I might quit reading her TRs. No need for name calling.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2010 - 07:00pm PT
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This isn't something that belongs on a climbing website. Religious debate has it's place. But not here. I shudder to think how many really good and worthy CLIMBING threads will get bumped off the front page for this. Flouride, this site is loaded with meaningless threads. Unless you have on at least one of those threads ranted repeatedly about how it was ruining your experience on the Taco, then it would appear that this attack is little more than an attack against a specific group of people whom you despise.
Religious debate has it's place. But not here. The title of this thread is "Favorite Bible Passages". It's no more of a call for debate on religion than "What Song Are You Listening To Right Now" is a call for debate on music.
At a California state university I took a course titled "The Bible as Literature". Interesting class. I guess the contents of what I learned isn't fit for the Taco, though.
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goatboy smellz
climber
लघिमा
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Feb 10, 2010 - 07:34pm PT
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Jesus told me Palin is a ball cupper, possible teabagger as well.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Feb 10, 2010 - 07:43pm PT
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To me, the bible is unreadable
Hi, Dr. F. You might want to take that Bible as Literature class I mentioned. It's amazing how many literary structures are in that book.
Say, on behalf of Fluoride, I want to say that your thread on Republicans has kept more good climbing threads off of the front page of the Taco than any other ten treads put together.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Feb 10, 2010 - 08:11pm PT
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"Zero historical facts talked about in the bible have been found to be valid from research outside the bible."
I beg your pardon???
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