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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:00am PT
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Senators Feinstein and Boxer did not try to sell their votes for
any extra cash for California. Whats up with that?
If its ok for others why not?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:01am PT
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They tried, but nobody took them seriously.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 01:07am PT
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The current iteration of ObamaCare is classic Mussolini-style Fascism
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 01:10am PT
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Interestingly, no one has addressed what the current fight is about.
It is not about healthcare. It is about power. The republicans accurately see that the passage of successful healthcare reform will buy a lot of votes for democrats, for a long time to come. On the other hand, if the repubs can get it defeated, or diluted to being an unpopular or unworkable program, then they will have severely wounded the democratic movement.
This makes it tanamount to a survival situation. In a fight for survival, one does everything, anything, whatever is needed to survive. There are no ethics, there is no "for the best thing for America", as loss of power is seen as the MOST important thing for America.
We are seeing sausage being made, and it will get uglier before we are done.
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." Albert Einstein
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apogee
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 01:11am PT
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"The insurance companies are now in bed with the government with the force of law behind their whims.
That's what this bill does."
Where the hell have you been for the last, oh, say, 100 years or so? US Gov't & Corporations in bed together? That's a big surprise to you?
Jeebus, TGT, you are the classic closed-minded Repug droid- two sets of rules, and only one view of the world.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Dec 21, 2009 - 01:41am PT
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Jesus, LEB, I think I'm falling for you: your mind, at least, as you're applying it here. Keep it up!
-Jello'sHeadIsSpinning
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 21, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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Let Tiny Tim carve his own peg leg out of a dead tree I say!!!
Ken wrote
It is not about healthcare. It is about power. The republicans accurately see that the passage of successful healthcare reform will buy a lot of votes for democrats, for a long time to come. On the other hand, if the repubs can get it defeated, or diluted to being an unpopular or unworkable program, then they will have severely wounded the democratic movement.
This makes it tanamount to a survival situation. In a fight for survival, one does everything, anything, whatever is needed to survive. There are no ethics, there is no "for the best thing for America", as loss of power is seen as the MOST important thing for America.
Sad but true. Politics are truly jacked when people have vested interests in good things not happening, just because they aren't in charge
Peace
Karl
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Dec 21, 2009 - 01:55am PT
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Ap, if this thing goes through on that time frame, it bodes well for the Democrats late next year. There will be time enough to dispell much of the bs propogated by the GOP, and they will be seen by the voters for what they are: a party rooted in a past view of the world that has outlived its' usefullness.
That being said, the Dems need to continue to morph toward a more egalitarian less self-absorbed future as well.
-Jello
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Dec 21, 2009 - 03:50am PT
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President Obama's Christmas gift to the country.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/21/us/21vote.html?hp
December 21, 2009
Health Bill Passes Key Test in the Senate With 60 Votes
By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN and ROBERT PEAR
WASHINGTON — After a long day of acid, partisan debate, Senate Democrats held ranks early Monday in a dead-of-night procedural vote that proved they had locked in the decisive margin needed to pass a far-reaching overhaul of the nation’s health care system.
The roll was called shortly after 1 a.m., with Washington still snowbound after a weekend blizzard, and the Senate voted on party lines to cut off a Republican filibuster of a package of changes to the health care bill by the majority leader, Harry Reid of Nevada.
The vote was 60 to 40 — a tally that is expected to be repeated four times as further procedural hurdles are cleared in the days ahead, and then once more in a dramatic, if predictable, finale tentatively scheduled for 7 p.m. on Christmas Eve.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:19am PT
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Fatty, you words might have some sense in them if it weren't for the fact that your party is so fiscally irresponsible. Government and debt have grown more under the republicans then they have under the dems in the last 50 years. Thankfully more and more people are waking up to this fact. This does not mean that the dems are perfect. But I would rather have their ineptitude versus the ineptitude of the current crop of republicans, who gave us george bush, two wars, a failing economy, double the national debt, corruption, a tarnished image worldwide as we became a nation of torturers, a broken fema, cronyism, a huge leap in the gap between the rich and everyone else, a declining middleclass, a broken school system ( what a great program no child left behind was ).
should I go on? Yep, the dems ain't perfect. I will still take them over the repubs at this point. Maybe we can eventually get back to what Clinton tried to start, which was a balanced budget, but as long as republicans keep saying, "war at all cost and too bad if you don't have health care", I wont accept their version of anything.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:35am PT
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So Obama's solution is to run up an even bigger debt?
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:46am PT
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http://www.marketw#tch.com/story/us-stock-investors-flock-to-big-health-insurers-2009-12-21?siteid=yhoof
Now thats a bad sign if ever I saw one.
If fact, if republicans were serious about holding down health care costs and the deficit they would have been pushing for a public option. Instead, by their non-participation, they allowed insurance company employees like Baucus and Lieberman to twist the process to the benefit of their bosses.
Its been a shameful spectacle for many reasons, but the complete lack of constructive involvement from republicans is certainly one of the worst.
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Dec 21, 2009 - 11:59am PT
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Jeremy is absolutely right.
The Congressional Budget Office found that a healthcare bill WITH a
Public Option would LOWER the deficit.
Because the GOP is fiscally irresponsible, they do not want a Public Option.
And the fact remains, the Republican Party, controlling ALL three branches
of the government, expanded the Federal Government at the FASTEST rate
in history, and ran up the biggest DEFICIT in history.
They did it by flat GIVING the largest tax cuts in history to the rich,
while at the same time, pissing away over one trillion dollars in Iraq.
In addition, the Republicans passed the Medicare Part D prescription drug
program in 2003, which pisses away 100 billion dollars a year on giveaway.
This is the absolute height of fiscal wild ass spending.
The GOP proves, by their actions, that they are big government SOCIALISTS.
Meanwhile, the Obama stock bull market continues, now up over 50% since
his economic stimulus bill was passed, while at the same time the bond
market has ZERO concern about the deficit, as rate STAY at historic LOWS.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
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"So Obama's solution is to run up an even bigger debt?"
You know, the thought occurred to me that while there is potential for great debt from this bill, somehow it's more palatable to me to have this debt as as result of providing a much needed domestic program that has been neglected for decades.
As opposed to a multi-trillion $ war that was started on completely unfounded reasons, killed many of our own citizen warriors as well as countless innocent civilians, and mainly benefitted Halliburton, Blackwater, and many other 'friends of Shrub/Cheney'.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:08pm PT
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NICS just matched the fingerprint of this perpetrator using advanced computer forensic technology.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:09pm PT
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Socialism is what happens when republican investments go bad.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
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Norton,
You continue to mislead readers by implying that the CBO study said a public option standing alone would lower the deficit. What that study waid was a combination of higher taxes, reduced payments to Medicare providers and unspecified cost savings would lower the deficit. The pulbic option, standing alone, would raise it.
In fact, even the three deficit reducing factors will not really do so. The tax increases were analyzed with static analysis. A major tax increase now would further worsen the economy, raising governmental outlays much faster than any revenue increase. The reduced payments to Medicare providers are already out, but in a different bill, and the unspecified cost savings remain illusory until someone specifies them.
The Senate's bill is really about Democrats trying to live in the Great Society which, as Fattrad pointed out, is the real cause of our spending being out of control. The fact that no Republican supported the bill does not reflect a lack of GOP interest. Rather, it represent a complete inability of the current Democratic leadership to incorporate any ideas or views of their opposition.
This bill will raise health care costs. It will lessen our choices. It will raise our taxes, and it will worsen our health care. The Democrats, alone, deserve the blame for what will happen.
John
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:16pm PT
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John, I state facts. You state your personal opinions as facts. Big difference.
There was nothing I said that was not true.
Again, the CBO said a bill WITH a PO would LOWER the deficit. Fact.
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Norton
Social climber
the Middle Class
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Dec 21, 2009 - 12:21pm PT
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Left side of chart, the stock market under Bush.
Right side of chart, the stock market under Obama.
Fact.
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