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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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Isn't it entirely possible that science is God.
It's beyond possible it is an absolute fact that God is everything.
The foolish will try to slice and separate everything in their feeble heads.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:31pm PT
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Brothers and Sisters,
We will not resolve the God vrs. no god issue at the Taco stand. We have reached, and passed, the point of diminishing returns in the discussion. All I have to add is that no matter what you believe, please respect the folks with points of views that differ from yours. At a minimum, we all have to share the same time/space. I also believe that we have more in common than not.
Hope to meet you all at the crag. First beer's on me.
Best to all,
Gene
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:34pm PT
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We're not here to resolve anything.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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We have reached, and passed, the point of diminishing returns in the discussion.
I think Bluering's last post was one of his best I've ever read. Jaybro's sign is fantastic. And I think I've found some common ground with Werner.
These threads help me understand different views. Good stuff.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:36pm PT
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We're not here to resolve anything.
True. Poor choice of words on my part.
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Homer
Mountain climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:40pm PT
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My feeling is that we're not posting to resolve the issue - that's not the return that we get from posting. There may be something else, maybe something that we don't understand, that's spinning around in God's feeble mind.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:48pm PT
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cintune!
All I can tell you is he was the man she was the women!
I carried around a picture of their face for my whole life!!
I only saw her that one time! but stared at her for close to a minute and face was burnt in to my memory.
Him I spoke directly with on four occasion,s that I am certain of. I recall them. There were probably more because he worked for the farmer across the street from us.
Can you remember anyone from your childhood? Say if some one gave you a picture of a little league coach, or teacher or neighbor?
Plus over the years I would occasionally think about it and picture them in my mind.
When I contacted the D.A.s office they asked allot of questions that only I would know. They were very clever about it. Question's like "how did I know he was in the military hospital for burns in Massena, New York (25 mi. from where I lived)? before being at home with his mother?
I told them I didn't know he was in the hospital!!
Maybe he was maybe he wasn't.
Everything I told you here on these post is the same thing I told them.
I never forgot his face.
He is a monster . His son and daughter believe he murdered at least thirty boy's! Maybe as many as seventy. The authority,s DA on the tape. From New Jerey and Ayer,s Mass. Say it is entirely possibly to have gotten away with it in the 50's and 60's.
They interviewed his son and daughter extensively about location's and body's etc. and said that only someone who was there would know those thing's.
They want hard evidence. You know,body fluid,finger print etc.
The boy (man now) said that he would always's bring him or a sister or as in my case both of them, to gain the victims trust.
Pretty sick guy and wife(she died about 10 or so years back)
We left that house were it happened about 2months after it happened moved to Massena. Then moved to Cali six months later.
How could I know of all the details about this guy if it wasn't true?
Mother lived somewhere near buy!
worked on the farm for the guy across the street!
Was burnt over his entire body and recuperated at his mother's house!
They mention my description of his deep dark eyes which is a feature evidently!
The son was desperate to get it proven because he feared he would kill again!
Maybe then thy will get their evidence!!
And I have proof that I didn't make it up at the spur of the moment because i have been telling the story for thirty years and have witnesses
that can attest to it, some are best friends. My family is another.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 23, 2009 - 08:55pm PT
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Wow. Well, glad you got away, whatever made it happen. Brings up the whole endless debate about evil in the world, though. Why didn't the other victims get the same kind of intervention? Because they didn't specifically ask for it? Again, seems at odds with a just and merciful deity. There's a quote floating around somewhere, forget whose, that says when people say the world needs more religion what they really mean is it needs more police.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:08pm PT
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cintune!
I have pondered that question many times!
And of course I don,t know.
Hopefully maybe some did get away.
It is a realy sad story in that aspect of it!
The one comfort I do get is I know all those little boy's are with the lord!!
This I firmly believe, and so has every pastor I have ever known, listened too, or talked too.
Thanks, for your kind words!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:10pm PT
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Poor gods. We need them less and less.
Used to be that humans would kill a virgin or a goat for the gods so they'd have a good crop. Some gods used to get to come down and have their way with shepherdesses. Used to be that humans prayed to the gods so gods'd make the sun rise again. Some gods were actively involved in the course of battles. Used to be that gods were the direct cause of everything and the answer to any and all HOWs and WHYs. Some gods used to hurl thunderbolts to smite the proud.
Poor gods; things just ain't what they used to be.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:14pm PT
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Fet, I know you know this, but; Werner and Bluey are earnest, though often playfull. 3x7 just don't get it; Pimp enough dogma and someone will be changed?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:18pm PT
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Ed wrote: "I think what you are saying, JL, is that the way we perceive reality is through an elaborate mental model that patches together a very utilitarian view of reality.
We can learn to "turn off" that model and experience reality not interpreted by that model, but just as it is.
If we do that, we find that that reality is vastly different than the one we think we experience everyday."
I can only guess that either your intuition or some boundary experience gave you that insight, but it is getting very close to what we've been driving at all along.
That much said, there are some interesting observations per what you have said there. First, I've never actually met someone who has really "turned off" their brain, though I suspect I have known people and ocassionally experienced myself moments when detachment is especially high. The amazing thing about these moments is that "reality" is exactly as it is when I'm "sleeping," except I'm not sleeping. IOW, "reality" does not change, I do.
Also interesting is that as your detachment increases from thoughts, feelings, sensations, memories, projections and so forth, and we become seemingly less than before, the world becomes inexpressively more vivid and clear and obvious. You can simply look at somethig and "know."
Here is when, perhaps, we directly experience something along the lines of what Hawking called "imaginary time," which in this instance is the content-less, thing-less, infinite context in which the ALL occurs, moment by ungraspable moment.
What's amazing to anyone who has spent even a second there is that people bet against this as being possible, or try and label "it" as a feeling or thought or brain activity and such.
What happens across the board, with virtually anyone who has been there, is the certain sense and conviction that consciousness or raw awareness is not local, and that in some ungraspable way, all that arises, whatever we can talk about or imagine, arises from this borderless, non-local consciousness. The head scratcher is that (with one exception) we only have tools to measure and "know" WHAT arises, not this borderless context from which the SH#TE arises in the first instance. The exception is our own minds, but we usually have to do a lot of work to recalibrate them before any of this is anything more than just another wonky idea.
JL
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:24pm PT
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Wanda!
Now we got the Beta' on the best route!
God gave it to us!
We realised all those other gods were bogus!
Love your sense of humor Wanda!
Don't ever lose it!
God gave it to ya!
Piece-seven!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:27pm PT
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Dr F
You're not asking tough questions.
You are evanglelising.
"There is no God" "there is no God"
Over & over and over and over continuously.
Face it dude you don't even know you're doing it.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
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May the discussion continue. LOL.
Peace all.
gm
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:30pm PT
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Whatever. After five thousand years of various "spiritual masters" dishing out their voodoo, there's nothing wrong with rational skeptics doing a little proselytizing.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 09:31pm PT
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You can't deflect that.
The bullet already hit you right between the eyes.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:04pm PT
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This is logical
I thought it was the result of mutations over millenia. Does logic mutate?
gm
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:18pm PT
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Dr.F!
I here what your saying bro!
Key word being demonstrate!
Would be hard to do I imagine!
How could say, my experience be demonstrated?
Even if my case say, went to court and the man is prosecuted by a court of 12.
People would still have their own explanation!
And I would understand and respect that.
Or if the court found the guy not guilty for lack of evidence!
I could understand!
I just feel very fortunate to be here!
I love life!
I love people!
Also love climbing and climbers!
I never really expected to come out with this story here of all places!
Although I read the post at this site off and on and S/T on a daily bases, I never posted.
Kind of like crossing a line.
Faith is something very difficult to describe for me!
We have faith in bridges when we cross them!
Maybe we should have less faith in bridges after what happened back east!
Man has to take that step!
Just admit you don't know!
You can't be 100% sure there is no God!
Who could be!
Because you can not demonstrate that for sure!
Simply say I don't know if you are there!
But if you are real, yes I want to know you! Please come into my life!
And He will!
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Oct 23, 2009 - 11:34pm PT
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the Fet- "These threads help me understand different views. Good stuff."
Very open minded, positive and encouraging outlook!
Needed that!
Thanks!
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